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Conservatives ended slavery and fought for civil right? ROTFL
You need to review your history. The Democratic party (ever heard of the term "southern democrat") supported slavery.
Southern Democrats were conservative.
Liberals ended slavery, such as members of my most distinctly liberal religion, for example, Rev. Dr. William Henry Furness, and Rev. Samuel Joseph May (Louisa May Alcott's uncle).
Liberals ended slavery, such as members of my most distinctly liberal religion, for example, Rev. Dr. William Henry Furness, and Rev. Samuel Joseph May (Louisa May Alcott's uncle).
I see some major similarities to the modern day conservatives there. They definitely weren't libertarians but conservatives? Yes.
Here's some pertinent parts which I think illustrates my point:
Quote:
That the maintenance of the principles promulgated in the Declaration of Independence and embodied in the Federal Constitution, "That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," is essential to the preservation of our Republican institutions; and that the Federal Constitution, the rights of the states, and the Union of the states, must and shall be preserved.
That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the states, and especially the right of each state, to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depends, and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any state or territory, no matter under what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes.
That the people justly view with alarm the reckless extravagance which pervades every department of the Federal Government; that a return to rigid economy and accountability is indispensable to arrest the systematic plunder of the public treasury by favored partisans; while the recent startling developments of frauds and corruptions at the federal metropolis, show that an entire change of Administration is imperatively demanded.
That the normal condition of all the territory of the United States is that of freedom; that as our republican fathers, when they had abolished slavery in all our national territory, ordained that no "person should be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law," it becomes our duty, by legislation, whenever such legislation is necessary, to maintain this provision of the constitution against all attempts to violate it; and we deny the authority of congress, of a territorial legislature, or of any individuals, to give legal existence to slavery in any territory of the United States.
You need to review your history. The Democratic party (ever heard of the term "southern democrat") supported slavery.
Lincoln was a member of the Republican party.
Now of course there were factions in the Democratic party back in the civil war era. But for the most party many Democrats (especially the vast majority of Southern Democrats) supported slavery.
Yes. When Democrats were the right wing party, and Republicans the left wing party.
As you know, this thread ("What right wing policies have actually been good for America?") is about right wing policies, not Republicans.
Now, if you want to argue that Democrats of the 19th century were left wing, in trying desperately to conserve the status quo and support wealthy landowners, and that the Republicans were right wing in trying to destroy the status quo, well, we'll just point at you and laugh.
Yes. When Democrats were the rightwing party, and Republicans the more leftwing party.
As you know, this thread ("What right wing policies have actually been good for America?") is about right wing policies, not Republicans.
Now, if you want to argue that Democrats of the 19th century were leftwing, in trying desperately to conserve the status quo and support wealthy landowners, and that the Republicans were leftwing in trying to destroy the status quo, well, we'll just point at you and laugh.
No, I disagree with this assertion. The right wing, at its core, has been about protecting rights. We see the Constitution as a limit of the government on its citizens and believe the Constitution is not something which should 'change with the times'. The Republicans being against slavery makes perfect sense to me. It was about upholding the rights of black people to not be enslaved, to not be treated as property, and to not have their rights violated. In an earlier post, I linked the Republican platform of 1860. The platform has many of the same ideas of today's Republican party, primarily conservatives.
Interesting. Here's the Republican platform of 1860.
Pretty amusing how consistently you do only half your homework. You didn't think to check out the Democratic Party National Platforms. A reasonable person would have no trouble seeing the foolishness in your claim that the Republican Party platform of 1860 was any closer to today's GOP platform than either of the Democratic Party platforms of 1860.
Here's a distinctly conservative (by today's definition) plank of the Democratic Party platform:
Quote:
That the Government of a Territory organized by an act of Congress, is provisional and temporary; and during its existence, all citizens of the United States have an equal right to settle with their property in the Territory, without their rights, either of person or property, being destroyed or impaired by Congressional or Territorial legislation.
In other words, personal recognizance over state regulation. Conservative.
Here's a beauty from the Republican Party platform:
Quote:
That the Republican party is opposed to any change in our Naturalization Laws or any State legislation by which the rights of citizenship hitherto accorded to immigrants from foreign lands shall be abridged or impaired; and in favor of giving a full and efficient protection to the rights of all classes of citizens, whether native or naturalized, both at home and abroad.
In other words, the Republicans support an open immigration policy. Liberal.
Your idea of trying to use 1860 as your paragon was foolish. I wonder if you'll have the integrity enough to be embarrassed by your ridiculous attempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmqueen
Now, if you want to argue that Democrats of the 19th century were left wing, in trying desperately to conserve the status quo and support wealthy landowners, and that the Republicans were right wing in trying to destroy the status quo, well, we'll just point at you and laugh.
Pretty much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel
No, I disagree with this assertion. The right wing, at its core, has been about protecting rights.
That is also precisely what liberal perspective is. Your failure to understand that the differences between right and left are about which rights have primacy explains your inability to understand the points being made for your edification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel
The Republicans being against slavery makes perfect sense to me.
Bull. Today's Republican perspective projected back to 1860 would see the anti-slavery movement, which again was a reflection of the work of mostly liberal people, as a violation of the property rights of slave owners. We can see the descendant of this despicable right-wing perspective, today, in the right-wing's advocacy for the "right" to defend one's property (not life, not health, but property) with lethal force.
No, I disagree with this assertion. The right wing, at its core, has been about protecting rights. We see the Constitution as a limit of the government on its citizens and believe the Constitution is not something which should 'change with the times'. The Republicans being against slavery makes perfect sense to me. It was about upholding the rights of black people to not be enslaved, to not be treated as property, and to not have their rights violated. In an earlier post, I linked the Republican platform of 1860. The platform has many of the same ideas of today's Republican party, primarily conservatives.
Well, I disagree. Of course both parties were more right wing than anything comparable to today's parties. And it is true that the Southern Democrats were the ones trying to wreck the union -- which might seem left wing, but since it was done in pursuit of conserving (see that word? How do you think today's Republicans got that adjective attached to them?) their status quo with slavery as the underpinning of their wealth, yeah, they were right wing by any classical definition of the word.
The right wing has always been all about money, and especially so back in the days when money was considered a virtue.
The true left as we know it today wasn't born until the Progressive movement of the 20th century. But blasting the hell out of someone's economy and status quo, on behalf of the more unfortunate members of society -- that was a thoroughly left wing action.
Conservative always try to paint things as black and white, but historians know better. There are nuances, and humans never fit neatly into your little boxes.
Well, I disagree. Of course both parties were more right wing than anything comparable to today's parties. And it is true that the Southern Democrats were the ones trying to wreck the union -- which might seem left wing, but since it was done in pursuit of conserving (see that word? How do you think today's Republicans got that adjective attached to them?) their status quo with slavery as the underpinning of their wealth, yeah, they were right wing by any classical definition of the word.
The right wing has always been all about money, and especially so back in the days when money was considered a virtue.
The true left as we know it today wasn't born until the Progressive movement of the 20th century. But blasting the hell out of someone's economy and status quo, on behalf of the more unfortunate members of society -- that was a thoroughly left wing action.
Conservative always try to paint things as black and white, but historians know better. There are nuances, and humans never fit neatly into your little boxes.
I do agree there are nuances to everything but I also see that the Republicans of yesteryear had the same principles of today. When I look at the right today (excepting the nutty extremists), I see a party that values the Constitution as the governing document of our country. This falls in line perfectly with the Republican party who believed that people should not be enslaved. I did a bit of research on this. I looked at the platform of 1860 and today's platform. They are striking similarities. To say that the right has always been about the money is erroneous and the myth which has been created in order to drive people away from my party. The truth is that we believe in the free market and the ability for each and every American to have the opportunities afforded to them that the free market allows. Believing in the free market does not equate to being 'all about [the] money'.
I do agree there are nuances to everything but I also see that the Republicans of yesteryear had the same principles of today. When I look at the right today (excepting the nutty extremists), I see a party that values the Constitution as the governing document of our country. This falls in line perfectly with the Republican party who believed that people should not be enslaved. I did a bit of research on this. I looked at the platform of 1860 and today's platform. They are striking similarities. To say that the right has always been about the money is erroneous and the myth which has been created in order to drive people away from my party. The truth is that we believe in the free market and the ability for each and every American to have the opportunities afforded to them that the free market allows. Believing in the free market does not equate to being 'all about [the] money'.
You did "a little research." That's nice. You'll forgive me if I completely ignore it ... as a trained historian with a top degree in history from a highly selective college, who spends most of her leisure time reading works of history.
And if you're going to completely ignore historical facts and all universally understood definitions of conservatives and liberals -- not to mention bUU's and my dissection of your position, there's not much anyone can do.
Have a nice day.
(I must say, though, that this notion of 18th century southerners being radical lefties keeping people in slavery is jaw-dropping even by CD standards.)
(I must say, though, that this notion of 18th century southerners being radical lefties keeping people in slavery is jaw-dropping even by CD standards.)
Self-serving self-deception is a hallmark of right-wing thinking.
You did "a little research." That's nice. You'll forgive me if I completely ignore it ... as a trained historian with a top degree in history from a highly selective college, who spends most of her leisure time reading works of history.
And if you're going to completely ignore historical facts and all universally understood definitions of conservatives and liberals -- not to mention bUU's and my dissection of your position, there's not much anyone can do.
Have a nice day.
(I must say, though, that this notion of 18th century southerners being radical lefties keeping people in slavery is jaw-dropping even by CD standards.)
And there is the problem with CD. I was actually trying to have a genuine debate with you. I was not looking for the pettiness that seems to pervade this board and I generally dismiss when I see it. This place tires me. Do you want to try again? You could actually prove your point to me, you know. I think your saying there were nuances was something to be explored but whatever. I guess it's par for the course on P&OC. Too bad.
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