Inconsistencies of Victim-Blaming (Congress, Iraq, Palestinian, legal)

[saganista]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

A lot of people just don't think of the future in realistic terms. Most children from problem backgrounds were never taught life skills. I certainly never knew how to manage money or even how to open a bank account, much less balance a checkbook! I'd like to see high schools offer more practical education in life skills.

A number of schools, probably most in more upscale areas, once had such courses. They've been forced to dump them (often along with art, music, home ec, phys ed, etc.) by the blessings of NCLB.

[BigHouse9]

Originally Posted by saganista

I would disagree. Emphatically. We are, in our increasing national misery, awash in a sea of me-me-me personal responsibility freaks. What we need is a dramatic change in attitudes with regard to social responsibility and the potential benefits that cooperation has to offer all of us. It serves no good purpose to send the relentless message that the less fortunate are bad people who are innately unworthy of being given a helping hand. Especially when the real reason boils down to little more than I've got mine or am busy getting it, and the rest of you can just bugger off.

I would beg to differ very much so. This is not about an attitude change concerning social responsibility, since there has been plenty of evidence that conservatives donate more to charities in time and dollars than liberals do. We need to change the attitude from "the government will support me" or "the government will rescue me". The old saying "If you want something done right, do it yourself" applies here.

I know we all want to help, but I would rather my money go to a charity where I get to choose who it helps and how it helps rather than going to the government to be dwindled down by beauracracy and red tape. The liberal fools think that giving a hand-out is better than giving a hand.

The increasing national misery seems to be derived from people's lack of accomplishment or frustration with the afore mentioned government red tape. How do people feel when the accomplish a job and do it right and do it well? That is more rewarding than being handed a check every week. That is the attitude that we should be fostering and that in essence built this country.

You seem to view the underpriveleged in this country as being completely incompetent which is a shame. We should be encouraging them to make the most of themselves rather than treating them as drains upon society or worthless people who can only stand in line to take something.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by pghquest

And who says they are not helping them do it? Last I checked, the left state that the left are to poor to help, unable to get ahead.. but someone is donating.. I wonder who it could be?

No, you only wonder who it could be according to John Stossel and Arthur Brooks. And maybe the Catalogue for Philanthropy. And you don't care what biases and basic methodological flaws those might include.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by pghquest

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020101866.html
Bush's 2008 Budget Calls For Boost to Pell Grant, Pell grants this year has gone from from $4050 to $4310, next year, going to $4600, a bill that BUSH proposed going back to February 2007. Where is the cut?

Did you read any of the dates in the OP? That's where. And those were from actual results, not budget proposals. We can all wait around and see what the renewal of Pell grant funding actually looks like once it's been boiled down through the process of more Senate filibusters to the dollars and cents of actual authorizations and appropriations, but however that process turns out, what you asked for was one example of a real cut. You got it.

[bily4]

I get a bit tired of reading how lazy and unachieving and poor all "the left" are. I have worked my rear off my entire life, earned multiple degrees which I paid for, and managed to build a nice life for myself and my family, as I am relatively sure many others have from their postings.

I realize however - that with health care and higher education both rising every year much faster than inflation, with jobs being offshored and companies downsizing with such a magnitude in the past few years....all it would take is a serious illness or a prolonged period of unemployment to put my family in jeopardy. And this is true for most Americans...not because they don't know how to "live within their means"...but because necessary expenses take up a much larger part of their total income than in past generations. The rules of the game are changing. I know several cases of people who used to scoff at public assistance until they were in a similar situation with an emergency... and all of a sudden needed help for a period of months or years until they could get back on their feet. Funny how quickly their tune changed.

[Reload]

To Fishmonger (and others):


Yes, I do find Conservative/right-wing victim blaming (or whatever you want to call it) incredibly inconsistent, add to that hypocritical and even cruel.

However, I don’t believe that this is solely a political issue. I think that people tend to look for a scapegoat, whether it’s poor people or immigrants. Blaming the problems of our country on scapegoats is far easier to do than taking a long, hard look at our society as a whole. Plus, I feel that bashing the poor tends to make those who have achieved success in life feel even better about themselves.

It’s funny, because you really don’t see masses of working poor people out there screaming about how much they hate rich people. If anything, it’s actually the other way around (and these forums alone are proof of that). Most working poor people are just out there trying to make ends meet, busting their asses working 2-3 jobs, while being chastised, blamed, put down and ridiculed by those who “have theirs”.

It’s very easy to sit back and blame poor / working class people for the situations they are in. It’s very easy to sit back and take a “blanket” approach in judging and essentially condemning millions of people who you don’t even know.

Then you wonder why there’s so much crime in the United States – it’s really not rocket science to figure that one out. The United States is the ultimate “me, me, me” society and you’re either a “have” or a “have not” – there’s really no in-between. I often feel that being poor in this country is worse than being a criminal and in many cases, people see the poor AS criminals who have committed the heinous crime of “Not making it in life and not taking personal responsibility” – a crime punishable by a lifetime of discrimination, blame and oh, if you get sick, tough! So no wonder so many turn to crime – they feel let down by society, chastised and blamed for being poor and they basically feel that they have nothing to lose (not that I am defending criminals for one second – just offering my own take on WHY people turn to crime in the first place).

People also say that the government should not help the poor as it would lower taxes and allow individuals to donate more to charities – all I have to say to that is YEAH, RIGHT! Of course, there are some good people out there who would donate, but I’m betting that for every one person who chooses to donate, 2,000 others won’t give a dime, or a damn. What you’ll have is a situation where the rich are incredibly rich and the poor are incredibly poor – kind of like Brazil.

I don’t know – I just find the general attitude in America towards those less fortunate (for whatever reason) as borderline sickening, especially at this time of the year. Not everyone can go out and get a college degree, not everyone can “make it” in the sense of being successful in business. As humans, we have evolved very quickly from being little more than hunter-gatherers – in many ways, we’ve probably evolved too quickly as many people have been left behind and are simply not cut out for the corporate “rat race”.

Most of the poor aren’t “victims” and I’m sure that most working poor people would not want to be seen as victims either. The only way I’d consider them victims is because they are constantly being put blamed by those who are more fortunate.

Blaming people for the so-called crime of being poor, and making them feel like s**t is not going to motivate them into helping themselves. All you’re doing is contributing to creating a society that is even more divided and filled with hatred and resentment – way to go America. People need to be encouraged, not blamed.


Being poor is not a crime.

[macmeal]

I enjoy threads such as this---more as a learner than a contributor. I think that the one thing that runs consistently all through this, is the fact that we have no real solid bedrock values by which to "judge" anything anymore. And without SOME base, or some agreed-upon system of defining right from wrong, we now find ourselves in the current situation. Much of our disagreements are simply an inability to define "good" or worthy places to spend our social safety-net funds, and silly or unworthy places. We can't agree on who derserves to be helped, and who is merely ripping off the system. I sincerely believe this issue lies behind 90% of our disagreements on this subject.

I think very few of us would deny services, financial or otherwise, to truly deserving folks. On the other hand, very few of us are inclined to "support" someone who has no realistic plan to ever help himself. It's a huge division, and where to draw the line is a thorny issue.

It's much worse over on the "immigration" sub-forum, where those who see America's primary duty as being to its own citizens, battle viciously with those who see America as the "default" caretaker for ALL the world's unfortunate, just because we're rich and they're not...(or at least SOME of us are rich..and SOME of them aren't). Huge HUGE controversy.....

[saganista]

Originally Posted by BigHouse9

OK, I just provided an anecdote about my grandfather becoming a success by working his way up in a time where there were far fewer opportunities than today. How is that not proof?

You are only reinforcing the earlier point re the poor understanding on the right of the difference between anecdotes and data. Anecdotes may be found to support nearly any theory at all. Do you think that no anecdote exists of an individual entirely comparable to your grandfather who experienced a very different outcome in his life? Data are defined, controlled, and verified observations that can be probed and tested with confidence. Anecdotes are interesting stories.

Originally Posted by chattypatty

Your excuses are the ones that seem to be mounting. Having a little drive and desire can take you a long way in this world. Making excuses and counting on others to do things for you is too much aof a reality today.

That you have to label it as an excuse only indicates that you aren't able to deal with it as a fact. Twenty people may have aspired to and worked tirelessly toward becoming President of the Bank. Only one did.

Originally Posted by chattypatty

The important point that you are missing is that he worked his way up FROM NOTHING, again, in a time when there were fewer opportunities...

You're still focused on the outliers. The one who became Bank President. The few who became ballerinas. And you use those isolated anecdotal successes to toss thousands into the dust bin. Have you no shame?

Originally Posted by chattypatty

And no, he did not arrange for a hand picked successor to take over as much as your little slanted liberal vision makes you think that that is the way ALL business is run. He was elected by a board and they elected someone after him. Wow, talk about stereotyping.

Yes, that was stereotyping. Stereotypes are often valid tools for raising complex matters in just a few words. As with most tools, problems arise not from the tool itself, but from the way in which it is used.

Originally Posted by chattypatty

Sorry, never heard that one.

Blather. You're enagaging in it yourself. If one could do it, all could have done it. Hence, those who didn't do it must be morally reprehensible or otherwise wanting in some way and are thus undeserving of our support or sympathy.

Originally Posted by chattypatty

But a physical capability and a mental capability are 2 different things.

By definition, although the two are always intertwined to a degree. But each in any case must be honed and practiced in much the same way in order to reach its fullest expression. I really don't understand why you couldn't run a sub-four-minute mile. Other people do it all the time, and they have the same two legs and two lungs as you.

Originally Posted by chattypatty

Now, off to the library with you to practice the 4 minute comic read!

Won't need the full four minutes. Took speed-reading as a freshman in high school. There's another course they don't offer anymore thanks to NCLB...

[pghquest]

Originally Posted by Reload

To Fishmonger (and others):
It’s funny, because you really don’t see masses of working poor people out there screaming about how much they hate rich people. If anything, it’s actually the other way around (and these forums alone are proof of that). Most working poor people are just out there trying to make ends meet, busting their asses working 2-3 jobs, while being chastised, blamed, put down and ridiculed by those who “have theirs”.

Sorry but show me where the rich, are screaming in masses about the poor? Show me where they are stating they hate the poor?

All I see are accusations of the left, accusing the right of hating the poor, and until I see PROOF here, its just another baseless accusation.

Requesting someone to be individually responsible for themself, then family, then society, is not HATE.

[bily4]

Well there are a lot of posts complaining about supporting domestic spending programs and taxes and how unconstitutional it is to take my money to help somebody else. And the posts about how anybody that works at McDonalds should be able to afford a college education today. And how anybody that gets bankrupted due to having to suddenly pony up thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars due to a sudden medical emergancy just was not living within their means.

Most of the poor that get public assistance are on it for a finite period of time. Some people have this perception they are all freeloaders. A third of the homeless have jobs and are trying to get back into society. 25% of homeless are vets that were not given the proper medical and psychological care upon their return to our country. One poster derided helping these vets as a "feel good" program that was not based on the constitution. I respect people that donate privately to charities, but the need in our society appears to outweigh what people give privately. It was interesting that people of modest income contribute more on a perecentage basis to chatrities than the very rich do, because they actually know people that need help or understand that there but for the grace of God go I.