Build a New Hudson River Tunnel - A Thread that Will Anger Left and Right (Schumer, cost)

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by urbanlife78

Never heard of that project before, but looking it up, it would have helped a lot to eliminate the need to drive into the Bronx just to get around. The congestion in that area is so horrible, I always hated driving it.

A bit of history is in order. Robert Moses was a master builder who caused the construction of most of the urban and suburban highways in the New York area. He was primarily a Parks Commissioner but at various times wore other hats. He lost most of his credibility and power with the financial debacle called the New York World's Fair of 1964-5. Prior to that his claims to fame include but are not limited to:

1. The Northern State Parkway (Long Island);
2. The Southern State Parkway (Long Island);
3. The Hutchinson River Parkway (Bronx and Westchester);
4. The Triborough Bridge (New York City);
5. Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (New York City) (though he originally wanted a bridge);
6. Queens-Midtown Tunnel (New York City) (though he originally wanted a bridge);
7. Long Island Expressway;
8. Taconic Parkway (not sure on that one);
9. Belt Parkway (New York City, Brooklyn and Queens);
10. Gowanus Expressway (Brooklyn);
11. Brooklyn-Queens Expressway;
12. Jones Beach;
13. Robert Moses State Park;
14. Cross County Parkway (Westchster);
15. Meadowbrook Parkway (Nassau County, Long Island);
16. Wantaugh Parkway (Nassau County, Long Island);
17. Sagtikos Parkway (Suffolk County, Long Island);
18. Clearview Expressway (Queens);
19. Cross Bronx Expressway;
20. Van Wyck Expressway (Queens); and
21. Henry Hudson Parkway

Projects that aborted included but were not limited to:

1. Extension of Clearview Expressway to JFK Airport;
2. Lower Manhattan Expressway;
3. Midtown Expressway;
4. Expressway along east shore of Hudson River from Yonkers to Bear Mountain Bridge;
5. Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge; and
6. Parkway on Fire Island

The later projects fell apart due to a combination of rising labor costs, rising interest rates, New York City's fiscal implosion in the early-mid 1970's and the "environmentalist" (really Not in My Back Yard, or NIMBY) movement. Robert Caro wrote a book called The Power Broker; Robert Moses and the Fall of New York that was really an anti-Moses diatribe. The book attributed much of mid-century decline of New York City to Moses-led improvements.

I would love to interview Caro (he's still alive) to ask about whether New York's renaissance, from roughly 1980 on was also the result of the same improvements. Mr. Caro claimed, for one, that the highway building did nothing to alleviate congestion. I would love to ask him whether the U.S.'s transition from one car per family to one car per person of driving age played at least some role in the fact that highways were congested as soon as they were built. I would also press him on whether the highways are congested 24/7. Hint, they flow like rivers about 18-20 hours a day, and about 4 hours is really rough. It would not make sense to build for maximum usage times. Tolls should do that job.

Originally Posted by dman72

Welcome to New Yawk/New Joysey.

I gotz mine, now yew getz yawz.

Getting into these trade unions requires you know somebody, they aren't giving that up without a fight, and they'll put the giant inflatable rat outside your building if you don't pay up!!

Again someone needs to sober up those unions. How many local jobs will there be if the area economy implodes as a result of transit, highway and/or water tunnels becoming unusable.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Kracer

It is a sore point for all NJ taxpayers to suppport (should be "support) the few that work in NYC or want to be entertained in the 'city'. Too bad, crowd people on an island and then complain there isn't enough access. Demonstrated shortsighted government has been and always will be a disater (should be "disaster"), compliments to the voters who keep electing them and tolerate their gross incompetence. Move away if you feel stressed by the commute.

I didn't say I was stressed by the congestion. But what do you think will happen if, say, the ability to commute from Boston to New York City to Washington by train is stopped for a lengthy period? Or to intra-New Jersey driving if spillback jams from functioning bridges or tunnels overwhelm local areas. That would make the Fort Lee Bridgegate "traffic study" look like a Sunday School picnic.

Originally Posted by Kracer

Obama's stimulus package and shovel ready jobs took care of all our uinfrastructure (should be "infrastructure" needs.

Which needs were taken care of besides Obama's need to win the 2012 election?

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

I didn't say I was stressed by the congestion. But what do you think will happen if, say, the ability to commute from Boston to New York City to Washington by train is stopped for a lengthy period? Or to intra-New Jersey driving if spillback jams from functioning bridges or tunnels overwhelm local areas. That would make the Fort Lee Bridgegate "traffic study" look like a Sunday School picnic.

Don'tcha know that "no one" rides trains anymore?

[Goinback2011]

As long as New Yorkers are taxed to fund the project, who cares?

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by Goinback2011

As long as New Yorkers are taxed to fund the project, who cares?

That depends on the project, the ones that help with moving goods are important to the economy of the country. At least that is what a right winger always says when it comes to expanding interstates, which is probably something I do agree with.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Don'tcha know that "no one" rides trains anymore?

I road the train from Westchester County to Washington DC on June 7 and returned to NYC on June 9. Train was packed both ways.

[mm4]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Today's NY Times editorial, Build a New Hudson River Tunnel discusses the need for a new rail tunnel to protect against what Senator Chuck Schumer calls "“a regional transportation Armageddon.” As the editorial describes it "(t)he first step would be a meeting of all parties that would benefit from the project, including representatives from Amtrak, New Jersey Transit, the states of New Jersey and New York, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the federal government and Congress. Each of these institutions will have to participate, and each will eventually 'write a check.'" There is a sorely missing group of parties here the construction unions, the governmental officials in charge of "poverty" programs and "community organizers.

Yes it needs to be built. But it may compete for funds to extend the 7 into Secaucus.

Will the 2nd Ave. line ever be finished in anyone's lifetime?

Originally Posted by jbgusa

There are other projects just as urgently needed. New York needs at least one more water tunnel,...

No. 3 isn't even finished yet; latter phases of it are still being bored.

Originally Posted by jbgusa

...so the existing three water tunnels can be shut down seriatim and rebuilt.

No. 3 was started so No. 1 could be shut down and inspected.

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Robert Moses was a master builder who caused the construction of most of the urban and suburban highways in the New York area. He was primarily a Parks Commissioner but at various times wore other hats.

He did it all under the rubric of Parks Commissioner. That's what made him a case study in the acquisition of power to Caro.

Don't forget the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. That's so immense that if you were to measure from center line to center line of each tower respectively at average sea level datum, and then do the same from and to center lines of the tops of each tower, the latter is a full 5/8" longer than the bottom measurement. Because of the curvature of the earth.

[Veneficus]

Not having to care about NYC area transportation money pits anymore...I mean "projects"?

Priceless.

For what it's worth the CBE, Cross Island, and Major Deegan will feature in my version of Hell.

[PDD]

Forget about transportation infrastructure in this country. We need more aircraft carriers, multi million dollar fighter jets. That's what's important.

To hell with the tunnels, roads and bridges.We need bigger military, that's what keeps the bad guys from attacking us.

[MTQ3000]

Originally Posted by dman72

The Cross Bronx Expressway is 6.5 miles of pure hell.

What's funny is if you drive it at 2Am (if there's no construction)..you get through in about 10 minutes.

During rush hour, it's an hour.

You brought back some horrible memories for me.

Mick