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You've got to be kidding me. There isn't a Jewish organization in the diaspora that supports self-determination in anything resembling a national "Israel" for any tribe in Europe, who they live amongst.
If not supporting Jewish self-determination is anti-Semitic, then Jews are widely anti-European. No one wants anyone else to have any self-determination. Amirite?
When you start caring about the integrity of Swedish or Polish self-determination, then those people and others will start caring about yours and your absolutely over-used and thus meaningless cynical accusations.
Zionism and self-determination for Europeans is white supremacism. Correct? That would be the ADL's definition. What is it for you?
There isn't a Jewish organization (except of maybe far left extremists) that oppose European self determination.
I lived in Belgium 4 years, and there is a strong cooperation between Jewish-Zionist right wingers like me and Flemish right wingers. If I was a Belgian citizen I would vote for Vlaams Belang despite all the bloody past. We need to look at the common enemy first.
There isn't a Jewish organization (except of maybe far left extremists) that oppose European self determination.
I lived in Belgium 4 years, and there is a strong cooperation between Jewish-Zionist right wingers like me and Flemish right wingers. If I was a Belgian citizen I would vote for Vlaams Belang despite all the bloody past. We need to look at the common enemy first.
Not sure which "enemy" you are referring to, but there are lots of common enemies depending on who you are. Perspective is everything...
The enemies I view as first in line to address are; ignorance, intolerance, bigotry, racism and pretty much everyone who chooses violence and force to promote their agenda rather than bringing peace when possible.
"The Resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict is a fundamental interest of the EU. The EU's objective is a two-state solution with an independent, democratic, viable and contiguous Palestinian state living side-by-side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbours. The EU has been deeply concerned about developments on the ground, which threaten to make a two-state solution impossible. The only way to resolve the conflict is through an agreement that ends the occupation which began in 1967, that ends all claims and that fulfils the aspirations of both parties. A one state reality would not be compatible with these aspirations."
Usually, I feel the same way in that I don't have the time or energy, which is why I was chipping away at Mash's long lesson about "How to Criticize Israel Without Being Antisemitic." Then along comes Golgi who shows how it can be done in one swell swoop. Different style, but I am always glad when more than just two or three voices are being heard from different sides of controversial issues like this one. I am also a bit more inspired when I sense the fight of right over might, the plight of the underdog against propaganda mostly intended to snuff out reasonable criticism. Like the accusations of anti-Semitism even in this thread for example...
To the contrary, reading about the love of different cultures also reminds me of my own, the pleasure of traveling through Europe as I have fortunately been able to enjoy more than a few times. I too am all for the preservation of different cultures, but clearly we don't have many cases in our modern day world where one "culture" wants land of their own at the expense of another "culture" rather than fostering a mutual respect and co-existence of those "cultures" together, not without violence and general world condemnation anyway. That any cultural clash be rooted in religious differences sure doesn't help the cause of either when it comes to right vs wrong.
Very hard for folks to be objective about right vs wrong when they lean heavy one way or another toward their religion and/or their "culture" at the expense of another.
My parents immigrated from Argentina to the United States to escape Peron, but they came to the U.S. to live in peace and become part of the culture here while at the same time they maintained their sense of being Argentinos as well. Apparently certain "cultures" have an easier time co-existing with others. I suspect claiming any sort of "divine right" to land going back thousands of years doesn't help keep the peace any...
The difference between you and Golgi is that Golgi simply has an Anti-Jewish agenda and borderline holocaust denier. You mean well, you just refuse to accept new information.
Anyhow, kind of hypocritical that your parents immigrated to the U.S to escape peron, yet you have been highly critical of Jewish amassing to Palestine after several millenniums of persecution.
The difference between you and Golgi is that Golgi simply has an Anti-Jewish agenda and borderline holocaust denier. You mean well, you just refuse to accept new information.
Anyhow, kind of hypocritical that your parents immigrated to the U.S to escape peron, yet you have been highly critical of Jewish amassing to Palestine after several millenniums of persecution.
Me thinks you brandish your paint brush a bit too broadly, and I doubt anyone has introduced any more "new" information than me in this thread. At least in terms of what ELSE to think about beyond our own personal comments and view points. Or so it seems that way to me given the comments posted here that hardly offer anything we didn't already know going back to WWII.
You also seem just as blinded by your perspective here that seems to suggest that what the Jews did in response to persecution is not quite unique when it comes to the carving out of Israel. For you to confuse or compare what my parents did with Zionists demonstrates a real lack of understanding here, about what this problem is all about. Again, lots of people have had to leave their homeland as a result of the wrong-doing of others, but not all have gone down the road of a second wrong to make a right.
Or..., maybe you know something about people immigrating from Argentina to escape Peron that I don't? Maybe you have information about those actions meeting with similar world attention and/or condemnation. I don't recall even ONE U.N. resolution addressing what my parents did as compared to the many related to what the Zionists did.
I mean to point out these obvious truths above all else, but I appreciate the added recognition that I mean well too. I do, even if you are being condescending. Best to accept the truth of these matters in any case, rather than cloud them as you seem inclined to do. You too can do better I think...
Me thinks you brandish your paint brush a bit too broadly, and I doubt anyone has introduced any more "new" information than me in this thread. At least in terms of what ELSE to think about beyond our own personal comments and view points. Or so it seems that way to me given the comments posted here that hardly offer anything we didn't already know going back to WWII.
You also seem just as blinded by your perspective here that seems to suggest that what the Jews did in response to persecution is not quite unique when it comes to the carving out of Israel. For you to confuse or compare what my parents did with Zionists demonstrates a real lack of understanding here, about what this problem is all about. Again, lots of people have had to leave their homeland as a result of the wrong-doing of others, but not all have gone down the road of a second wrong to make a right.
Or..., maybe you know something about people immigrating from Argentina to escape Peron that I don't? Maybe you have information about those actions meeting with similar world attention and/or condemnation. I don't recall even ONE U.N. resolution addressing what my parents did as compared to the many related to what the Zionists did.
I mean to point out these obvious truths above all else, but I appreciate the added recognition that I mean well too. I do, even if you are being condescending. Best to accept the truth of these matters in any case, rather than cloud them as you seem inclined to do. You too can do better I think...
You have been proved wrong many times about your UN Resolutions. None of them are binding! They don't mean anything, they don' mean absolute truth.
Anyhow, until you provide historical proof of Jewish wrong via refugee status in Palestine, your babbling has proven nothing.
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Again with the enemies...
