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Actually yes it is illegal, without a permission of the person or a warrant.
Did you not see the emphasis on ANY? Or more apt, ALL searches. That was what was implied by the poster I responded too.
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In this case the warrant does not apply to Apple, it applies to two dead people (or the employer who's phone it actually is)
You are equivocating access with the removal of a feature that does not grant or allow access but rather destroys information. The warrant gives the government the right to access the phone's contents. The court order tells Apple to remove the self-destruct feature.
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Actually you don't need to present a compelling argument, any more than you need to present a compelling argument for hitting your car with a hammer, or setting fire to your underwear (perhaps while wearing it).
It's rather compelling that its illegal to destroy evidence, either by agent or hand.
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Your property, your right to dispose of that property as you see fit.
No one is arguing the legality of such a feature. This is a disingenuous argument.
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Now the government needs to present a compelling argument why you are not entitled to self-destruct your data on your phone, because currently there is no law prohibiting destruction of your data.
Nice spin guy. You can legally have a self-destruct feature on your phone all you want, it does not mean you have are entitled to have a self-destruct feature, nor do you have any right to prevent it's removal under a court order. There is no legal precedence that says the government can not remove self-destruction features.
You present your argument in such a disingenuous way, it's hard to take you serious.
You are basically arguing that you have a legal right to set booby traps in your house.
Again, if I'm not the subject of investigations, a virtual self-destruct option is a huge asset in the unfortunate instance where my phone is lost or stolen. I don't see how anyone has "a right to the information" in a case where I've done nothing wrong.
They don't. The government, me, nor is anyone else is advocating the government has a right to your phone data absent probable cause. The government is not making this argument to Apple.
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So if the government "isn't asking for access to information" what ARE they asking for?
To remove the virtual self-destruct feature on the phone, which still will not give them access.
Did you not see the emphasis on ANY? Or more apt, ALL searches. That was what was implied by the poster I responded too.
Yes any search is illegal without permission of the person to be searched, or a warrant issued by a court.
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Originally Posted by billydaman
You are equivocating access with the removal of a feature that does not grant or allow access but rather destroys information. The warrant gives the government the right to access the phone's contents. The court order tells Apple to remove the self-destruct feature.
No access is permitted via the warrant, there is no requirement implied by the warrant that anything should be found, or that anyone but law enforcement are responsible for the search. The order is moot at present because it's under appeal.
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Originally Posted by billydaman
It's rather compelling that its illegal to destroy evidence, either by agent or hand.
It's not evidence on my phone, evidence means that there is some indication of some crime, and that I (and everyone else) is under investigation for one or numbers of crimes undisclosed. Until there is an active investigation any data is not evidence, it's data, and is the property of the owner, who can do what they want with it.
If you're proposing that it is evidence, then I'm getting my tin-foil hat and AR at the ready, because that's the indications of a totalitarian police state.
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Originally Posted by billydaman
No one is arguing the legality of such a feature. This is a disingenuous argument.
But you are arguing the legality of disposition of personal property, it's not disingenuous if you cannot see what you're arguing, it's myopic on the person arguing that position.
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Originally Posted by billydaman
Nice spin guy. You can legally have a self-destruct feature on your phone all you want, it does not mean you have are entitled to have a self-destruct feature. There is no legal precedence that says the government can not remove self-destruction features.
The legal precedent is that the government have to show that it furthers a compelling government interest, and be narrowly tailored to that interest. Thus blanket prohibition on the deletion of personal data would fail the test.
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Originally Posted by billydaman
You present your argument in such a disingenuous way, it's hard to take you serious.
You are basically arguing that you have a legal right to set booby traps in your house.
Is there a law prohibiting booby traps? If so then you cannot, if there is no law prohibiting booby traps then you have every right. Common law follows the doctrine of that which is not prohibited is permitted, so the government needs to come up with a prohibition and reason for why destruction of your own data is not in the best interests of the country.
The government is asking Apple to remove the virtual self-destruct feature on a single phone. This does not impact anyone's privacy. This request does not stop anyone from wiping their phone remotely, if needed. This request does not give anyone any access to any protected information.
If you can not create a password that can withstand conventional brute force techniques (the governments capability to brute force it, is not something than can be done easily), it's your own fault. If your phone winds up in the governments hands, and you do not wipe it, its your own fault. Not to mention, how is any information they find on your phone relevant, unless it's illegal? The government still needs a warrant or court order to review your phone and they need probable cause.
Again, removing the self-destruct feature on the phone does not present a credible threat to privacy.
The bold part is absolutely not true. A low level hacker using a network of a few computers could take care of the type of password used on a standard iPhone via brute force in an hour or so with the self destruct feature removed regardless of how strong you make it.
The government is asking Apple to remove the virtual self-destruct feature on a single phone. This does not impact anyone's privacy. This request does not stop anyone from wiping their phone remotely, if needed. This request does not give anyone any access to any protected information.
If you can not create a password that can withstand conventional brute force techniques (the governments capability to brute force it, is not something than can be done easily), it's your own fault. If your phone winds up in the governments hands, and you do not wipe it, its your own fault. Not to mention, how is any information they find on your phone relevant, unless it's illegal? The government still needs a warrant or court order to review your phone and they need probable cause.
Again, removing the self-destruct feature on the phone does not present a credible threat to privacy.
Imagine if you had an iPad with drawings and IP stored locally for a new product. Your competitor would love to have that data. They steal your iPad. You have the data encrypted and the self-destruct activated. Your competitor has donated millions to a ranking member of the senate intelligence committee and steered some inside info his way allowing him to make a few million in the stock market.
You still think it's a good idea and not a threat to privacy?
Imagine if you had an iPad with drawings and IP stored locally for a new product. Your competitor would love to have that data. They steal your iPad. You have the data encrypted and the self-destruct activated. Your competitor has donated millions to a ranking member of the senate intelligence committee and steered some inside info his way allowing him to make a few million in the stock market.
You still think it's a good idea and not a threat to privacy?
You are naive.
The government can not access the phone with out a warrant and probable cause. The self-destruct feature is not relevant to someone accessing your device. The nefarious competitor can pay an Apple engineer or hacker to do the same thing you are so fearful of. The government asking Apple to remove the virtual self-destruct option on a single device has no impact no one else. Apple doing this does not change a single iPhone, other than the dead guys. There is no increased threat to you, or anyone else. There is no change to the privacy or operation of all other iPhones.
The government can not access the phone with out a warrant and probable cause. The self-destruct feature is not relevant to someone accessing your device. The nefarious competitor can pay an Apple engineer or hacker to do the same thing you are so fearful of. The government asking Apple to remove the virtual self-destruct option on a single devicehas no impact no one else. Apple doing this does not change a single iPhone, other than the dead guys. There is no increased threat to you, or anyone else.
The bolded statements are false. They are being asked to write code to specifically break the operating system so that unauthorized people can access information on the phone. The theory is that it will only be used on this one phone, but considering the fact that: a) Apple has in the past lost a working physical prototype of a phone out in the public for others to find; b)this will just lines of code that can be put on a flash drive, emailed out, or otherwise illegally obtained from inside the Apple firewall so its in "the wild" for others to use in malicious ways; and c) by the simple process of writing the code you will have a team of engineers and programmers with intimate knowledge on how to do this on their own who could potentially leak the information.
There are multiple ways that this hack slips out to the public domain and can cause serious security problems for millions of people. We also don't know that the government wont somehow get their hands on it or figure out how it was done and then be able to peek into the phones of anyone else if the opportunity arises.
^^^ what you don't get is that in order to comply with the request for a singular phone they would have to develop a method which would put EVERY phone at risk.
They are being asked to write code to specifically break the operating system so that unauthorized people can access information on the phone.
No, they are not. They are asking the company to remove a virtual self-destruct feature. You and others want this to be about access. It's not about access. It's about the preservation of evidence.
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The theory is that it will only be used on this one phone, but considering the fact that: a) Apple has in the past lost a working physical prototype of a phone out in the public for others to find; b)this will just lines of code that can be put on a flash drive, emailed out, or otherwise illegally obtained from inside the Apple firewall so its in "the wild" for others to use in malicious ways; and c) by the simple process of writing the code you will have a team of engineers and programmers with intimate knowledge on how to do this on their own who could potentially leak the information.
So your compelling argument is proliferation. McAfee just offered to hack the phone and said he could get it done in three weeks. The government is asking Apple to do something that is already possible. The threat to your data will be unchanged, whether Apple does this or not. Whether Apple develops programming or some nefarious actor does, the threat remains, whether they get help from the government or not. It's like asking Apple not to create a virus that will be created anyways....because it may get proliferated. Do honestly believe they will not get access to the information on that phone at some point? Do you really think Apple engineers are the smartest people in the room and are the only ones who can do what the Government is asking?
There are multiple ways that this hack slips out to the public domain and can cause serious security problems for millions of people. We also don't know that the government wont somehow get their hands on it or figure out how it was done and then be able to peek into the phones of anyone else if the opportunity arises.
Apple helping with this specific iPhone does not change this threat at all.
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