Why there is a race issue in the USA? (speech, ideologies, Hispanics)

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by Nlambert

This is going to take a minute, but I am going to break down and address your comments. I think this is part of the disconnect between white and black Americans. If we could get all of this worked out, maybe we can make progress.

On the bold, I personally do not feel a "disconnect" between myself and white Americans. I think people only believe that because they are too entrenched with following media and slanted internet sites that want to make everything and everyone have "issues" and "problems." I have white family members by both marriage and even blood related (distant cousins). To me all people are people, but in our society we do have different experiences based on ethnicity/race.

Why not? I've been victim to being discriminated against because I'm white at a black college in my city simply because I was there doing a job and was white. I was told point blank on numerous occasions (once by the campus police, btw) that the company needed to stop sending white folks to a black campus because we don't belong there. (I actually received a minority scholarship to the college that I didn't use. Glad I didn't) I was even told at one point when asking a custodian where the restroom was not to use the restroom because of it. I can guarantee that there are many white people who have similar experiences. We just don't discuss them. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Herein lies one major difference between white and black culture. For the most part, we don't speak out when we are wronged. We realize that it is a part of life.

Because there is not a historical connotation between whites being the victims of systematic racism. I am speaking specifically about systematic racism, whereas laws were created or racist traditions were upheld that stated someone could not do something or they must do something or be a certain way based on their skin color. You have not experienced anything like this as a white person in America and IMO for you to insinuate that these minor things were systematic racism based on your skin color is silly.

Personally, I have been called a n*gg** b***ch at jobs multiple times. How many have you? I have had hiring managers (whites I have worked with) state they didn't want to hire a qualified black person because they had dreadlocks and it was "too ethnic" also because someone's name was "too ghetto" sounding. How often has this happened to you? I have been asked repeatedly as a black woman in grocery stores if I am using or if I have "enough" on my "EBT" to get my groceries. How many times have you been asked this? I have been told by random strangers when I'm out with my kids and their friends/cousins (4-6 kids) that I should "keep my legs closed" and that I "shouldn't have so many kids" (I have 2 kids) and have gotten stupid, short lectures on black women and black mothers in particular. How often has this happened to you? I also get told repeatedly about what I need to do to fix black people in general. How often are you asked to fix white people? I doubt never. These above are also not cases of systematic racism (except the ones dealing with HR and FWIW these are only a few of VERY discriminatory things I have witnessed/experienced in working in an HR capacity).

In regards to "minority" scholarships, that is another silly thing IMO that people like to bring up. Whites can get scholarships based on ethnicity (there are German, Irish, Polish, etc. American scholarships..) And a majority of black people do not get scholarships for being black. Also, white people get scholarships at HBCUs and even qualify for UNCF scholarships if they attend a UNCF member school.

Fair enough. We are all entitled to our opinions. Buy why is it silly? One of the major things we as white people are reminded of is slavery. We see it all the time. And we hear that blacks are still oppressed and that stems from slavery. As white people are becoming more vocal about their disapproval of racism against us, it will eventually go into the history books and become part of history. Current perspective is as important as history because that is what it becomes.

Because you are considered to be a "normal American" just because you are white. You are not considered to be inferior based on being black. The norm of society of you as a white person is not perpetual dysfunction.

I doubt as well you hear blacks are "still oppressed" and that it "stems from slavery." However, I'm sure you hear what I stated, that racism is still around and that race based discrimination is a factor in the treatment of black people in America. Is it your contention that this is not an effect of slavery? It actually is. If you are willing to engage in a discussion about "race issues" in America, I'm sorry but slavery will be a part of that discussion. Why are you afraid to discuss it? Why are you offended? Did you own slaves? Has anyone said you are directly to blame for slavery? I doubt that has happened either. IMO people like you are just too sensitive and suffer from white guilt syndrome. There is nothing for you to feel guilty about and me as a black person mentioning that I'm black and talking about my enslaved ancestors is not some sort of blame game intended to make you feel bad.

And the claims from whites of "reverse racism" is already in history books. This has been claimed by whites since the 1980s. It is not new.

It could be, as that is what I see in the media and in some of my dealings in the public. Granted, this doesn't apply to ALL black people and I have never said that it does. But it does apply to some. And those are the ones screaming the loudest. Those screaming the loudest are what we get to see and deal with. So those are the people that are going to stick out in our mind. They overshadow any good deeds done by the black community.

As a white person, why are you not more concerned about "some" of the white population who vastly outnumber the entire population of black people who are living in poverty and lead dysfunctional lives.

I have been discriminated against for being white. I'm not a woman, but my wife has dealt with gender discrimination. She's always rose above it (and I admire her for it). There are entrenched bias against whites as well. Many black people are just not yet ready to admit it. There has been a hatred for us for decades because of our history. There is no denying that. I HAVE been discriminated against for being poor. Oddly enough I no longer have that issue.

I stated that gender and class discrimination exist. However, it is true that you have not faced any race based discrimination for being black. You do not understand that this sort of discrimination follows you wherever you go.

It is interesting if you are a white male, that you feel you are discriminated against. You bring up statistics below in order to justify your stereotypes of black Americans, yet will you admit that statistically white men have the most power of any demographic in our country and our country is still ruled by white men (white capitalists primarily). Therefore, white men cannot be discriminated against by any institution in our society based solely on their racial identity.

What you just said above proves there is a disconnect between what a white person says and a black person hears. In my opinion, it's almost like selective hearing.

• I believe that some black people believe everything said that they don't agree with is discrimination and have a predefined notion that the next person they meet is going to be racist. Sometimes it's not and sometimes we're not. Sometimes it is another point of view.
• I don't believe most black people are poverty stricken. But there is statistical data that there are more black people on government assistance than white people and from personal experience with some of those people, they have no desire to better their situation. They also tend to be the loudest people complaining when they need something else.
• Belief that black Americans are culturally different is not something that a white person made up. We are told this frequently by black Americans. We can also see this in music, food, style, tv shows, etc... That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but there IS a cultural difference.
• Again, this belief is founded on the loudest speakers. Where are the MLK's of today that are promoting peace? We don't see them.

Again, I don't consider myself disconnected from white people. I heard everything you said, but you are trying to prove to me and other readers on this forum, that as a white man, you are discriminated against in the same way as a black person...

I think it is your personal disconnect. As stated I have many white American friends, I have white American family members. They know that they are not discriminated against "equally" to a black person. They know this because they are able to rationally view the subject and they know via us living in a very integrated area that racial bias for black Americans is something that we deal with our entire lives in every facet of our lives, not in just one or two circumstances.

On the bullets, you should not make general statements if you mean "some." You should also not put the negative stereotypes of a minority of the black population on the whole of the population.

On MLK, please review some other MLK quotes I'm sure you've never seen. FYI, MLK was viewed during his era as a "race agitator." He was hated by whites in particular because he caused "problems" and they felt that he should "shut up/be quiet" since whites did not recognize that blacks were discriminated against and those that did didn't do anything about it due to not wanting to upset the status quo:

“I’m sorry to have to say to you that the vast majority of white Americans are racist, either consciously or unconsciously.”

From his "I may not get there with you" speech

...direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth

From "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" on the accusation of inciting violence and tension/being a "race agitator."

I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate neither the "do nothingism" of the complacent nor the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent protest. I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I am convinced, be flowing with blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies--a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare.

From "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" in regards to being labeled a race agitator.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

From "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" on whites ignoring racism.

Most Americans it seems know little of MLK other than the "I Have a Dream Speech." In his day he was considered a communist radical (n*gg**).

Looking to your ancestors as inspiration and motivation to better your life is commendable. Reminding white people that blacks have been oppressed for decades and that it still exists and "we" still haven't "made it right" is where white people take issue. It isn't being proud of your ancestors. On that same note, if we attempt to be proud of our heritage and ancestors we get reminded that our ancestors probably owned slaves and told that we should be ashamed of our history. See how that works?

Nobody has said you have made things wrong or right...Again, I made no mention of having any oppression or that I have not "made it." You, with your sensibilities were upset it seems that I spoke of black people and slavery and often that is all it takes for people like you to get defensive about things no one has said about you. And FWIW we have to talk about our ancestors if we are going to be inspired and proud of them. It seems IMO since I never mentioned that you oppressed me (or that I was oppressed) and I only mentioned slavery in response to the OP who stated I had nothing to be "proud" of my ancestors about because they were enslaved - I didn't bring it up. Usually whites are the ones who bring it up in the first place.

And I am a pretty serious amateur genealogist. As stated, I have white family members by blood who I have found via my research. We LOVE sharing information, even from our unnconnected lines. I help all sorts of people do family trees and I actually see the common human experience in all of the families I research. I have Scots/Irish ancestry, Irish, and English, along with African and even found recently evidence of Native Ancestry (which I couldn't believe! as usually this is an unfounded myth in black families, but I have a paper trail from one of my earliest ancestors who as a native "servant"/slave in VA). You exploring your family tree should not make you ashamed. Some whites owned slaves prior to 1865. I actually have connected with families whose families owned my enslaved ancestors. This was over 100 years ago. Why should they feel ashamed? There is nothing they can do about it if it occurred in their family and FWIW, most whites alive today do not have any ancestors who owned slaves. However, I will state that most had ancestors who were like MLK described in the 4th quote I posted above.

I never said they were..... I said some. I have stated numerous times that I know VERY successful black people who are upstanding citizens in our communities. They are role models for many others. It's never an all or nothing situation and never have I insinuated that it is. But I am providing a white perspective based on what I see.

Well then you should stop making generalizations of black Americans. A majority of us are successful and upstanding citizens in all sorts of communities and are role models. You are not providing a "white perspective" you are providing your own personal perspective as am I. But FWIW I agree that too many white people have a perspective similar to yours (in that they generalize all black people as poor and dysfunctional and only speak of the "successful" and "upstanding" black people when confronted about the error of their words because of the pervasive negative stereotypes of black Americans in our country).

I commend you for your success in life. I have no doubt that you have earned every bit of it. Kudos to you for making good decisions.

I don't need commendation for my "success." I am a regular, majority member of the black American demographic. My circumstances and "good decisions" are commonplace amongst black Americans.

Statistics and public experience with blacks in certain areas are why they are viewed as dangerous. Let's say we are in an area where statistics and personal experience shows that 8 out of 10 contacts with young black males end in evading, drugs, violence, etc... If a cop pulls over 20 people, and 18 of the 20 people are young black males, they are going to be approached very suspiciously and cautiously. Black police approach the same way. This is not discrimination. It is taking history and statistics and using those to carefully assess a situation and determine how to react to it. Where I grew up (small town that has a problem with drugs in certain areas), a poor white man in a beat up vehicle is more likely to get pulled over and searched for drugs than anyone else. It's not discriminatory.... it's statistics.

Statistics should never be taken as the truth for an entire demographic of people. On your "pulling over" explanation, statistics actually show that whites are MUCH more likely to have drugs especially on their person in vehicles versus black people. Why would police not approach whites as suspicious when white males are MUCH more likely to kill a police officer, even with recent events. Prior to Dallas practically every officer who was killed this year was killed by a white man.

Also, I make no racial distinction between police. IMO white officers, black or hispanic or Asian are all members of the law enforcement ring and their race makes no difference in me believing, that our criminal justice system is especially rife with racial bias. Black people can be racially biased against other black people.

I have openly admitted that the struggles are different. Blacks all too often want to act like white people don't have issues. We get completely SICK of hearing about it because there are always attempts to act like we are free of any burdens because we have "white privilege". It's been mentioned in this thread already. We don't want to hear about it all the time because we have our own struggles to deal with. People need to learn to internalize more, and externalize less. Deal with your problems on your own before bringing them into the spotlight. Whites aren't trying to downplay the black person's struggle (again, here's the disconnect between what a white person says, and what a black person hears), we are simply saying we have them too. I've already addressed the racial discrimination topic above, so I wont go back into that one again.

Blacks as a group have never said whites "don't have issues." If anything in most conversations such as these black people, such as myself will tell whites like you that you do have issues and maybe you should focus on your issues versus trying to make yourselves fee superior by denigrating black people. I grew up in a VERY integrated community and the most dysfunctional people I knew were white people. They had similar and worse problems of black socioeconomically, however as I stated, they did not have to deal with being racially discriminated against based on skin color like black people were and still are.

[Nlambert]

The issue isn't one that was simply started by white people. It is as inherent in the black community as it is in the white community. Until both communities acknowledge this and admit that neither group can carry the blame we can expect more of the same. Here are some examples of racists and anti-racists from both cultures. There are good and bad in all and no one is immune to it. It's a conscious choice to make.


Black racists:


Racism as a form of skin worship, and as a sickness and a pathological anxiety for America, is so great, until the poor whites -- rather than fighting for jobs or education -- fight to remain pink and fight to remain white. And therefore they cannot see an alliance with people that they feel to be inherently inferior. - Jesse Jackson


“White folks was in the caves while we [blacks] was building empires … We built pyramids before Donald Trump ever knew what architecture was … we taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it." - Al Sharpton


"Them Jews aren’t going to let (Obama) talk to me. I told my baby daughter, that he’ll talk to me in five years when he’s a lame duck, or in eight years when he’s out of office. …They will not let him talk to somebody who calls a spade what it is.” -- Jeremiah Wright


"The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the lake of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years.” - Louis Farrakhan


I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my mental health.” - NYC Councilman Charles Barron




White racists:


“(Blacks and Hispanics) are too busy eating watermelons and tacos to learn how to read and write.” - Mike Wallace


“You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent. I’m not joking” - Joe Biden


“I can’t stand black guys. I would never touch one. It’s gross.” - Paris Hilton


“I’ll have those n***** voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” - Lyndon B. Johnson






Black anti-racists:


I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color. - Malcolm X (after he turned away from his original ideologies)


Once you begin to explain or excuse all events on racial grounds, you begin to indulge in the perilous mythology of race. - James Earl Jones


No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." - Nelson Mandela


"Race is the great taboo in our society. We are afraid to talk about it. White folks fear their unspoken views will be deemed racist. People of colour are filled with sorrow and rage at unrighted wrongs. Drowning in silence, we are brothers and sisters drowning each other. Once we decide to transform ourselves from fearful caterpillars into courageous butterflies, we will be able to bridge the racial gulf and move forward together towards a bright and colourful future." - Eva Paterson




White anti-racists:


End Racism Day ... is a perfect opportunity to help our communities celebrate human unity and the diversity of the human race rather than allow our differences to become an excuse for racial separation. - Robert Silverstein


Man has but little heeded the advice of the wise men. He has been - fatefully, if not willingly - less virtuous, less constant, less rational, less peaceful than he knows how to be, than he is fully capable of being. He has been led astray from the ways of peace and brotherhood by his addiction to concepts and attitudes of narrow nationalism, racial and religious bigotry, greed and lust for power. - Ralph Bunche


"…jingoism, racism, fear, religious fundamentalism: these are the ways of appealing to people if you're trying to organize a mass base of support for policies that are really intended to crush them." - Noam Chomsky


Racism is cruel and unjust. It cuts deep and lingers long in individual and community memories. And it is not a thing of the past....We all have a duty to do what we can to turn this around. - William Deane


Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason."
-- Abraham Joshua Heschel

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by Nlambert

The issue isn't one that was simply started by white people. It is as inherent in the black community as it is in the white community. Until both communities acknowledge this and admit that neither group can carry the blame we can expect more of the same. Here are some examples of racists and anti-racists from both cultures. There are good and bad in all and no one is immune to it. It's a conscious choice to make.

LOL at the bold. At that you have lost me on thinking you are a rational person who wants to discuss "race issues."

You need to learn some American history and colonial history.

[Alandros]

Originally Posted by Julian658

Slavery went on from 1619 to 1865
Jim Crow 1877-1965

Blacks have only experience some sense of freedom for a bit more than 50 years.

Most black Americans are descendant of slaves.

It is not the same thing to be the son of a slave than to be the son of a merchant, a farm owner, a businessman, a doctor, a lawyer, a police officer, a school teacher, etc, etc.

Blacks started at ZERO and had ZERO education or training. They had no one to look up to as the families were broken apart.

American Blacks have done phenomenally well given the original position from where they started. And 51 years is not a long time since the end of Jim Crow.

Most people of European heritage like myself can look back for 500-1000 years of successful heritage where families were together and values were passed down. Blacks could not pass anything down because there was no family.

Some American blacks found a way to somehow have a family and those folks have done very well and surpassed many whites.

Oppression from 1619 until 1965 created a generation of people that was overtly sensitive to perceived racism. They have lived in stress for hundreds of years and that explains the hypersensitivity to cops and authority.

Very true. The reality is equality has never been achieved... Things have gotten better but there simply has never been equality. Just look at poverty rates among Blacks and Whites and see the amazing disparity. It's all a legacy of hate going back to slavery. There were 4075 lynchings that have been identified between 1870 and 1950 in the Southern 12 states... I mean that's just one metric of how much hate and violence and oppression existed in the South even after slavery was abolished... and the rest of the nation was quite racist by our modern standards as well. That doesn't go away overnight.

Unfortunately most people don't have a good understanding of US history. I think better History education would go a long way.

[Alandros]

Originally Posted by Nlambert

The issue isn't one that was simply started by white people. It is as inherent in the black community as it is in the white community. Until both communities acknowledge this and admit that neither group can carry the blame we can expect more of the same. Here are some examples of racists and anti-racists from both cultures. There are good and bad in all and no one is immune to it. It's a conscious choice to make.

False equivalence. Yes there are racists of every skin colors... People in general can be jerks and discriminate for a variety of things... to suggest it is only exclusive to white people would racist itself. That doesn't mean it's all the same. There will always be people that don't like other people fairly or unfairly. What's wrong is when that happens to a group in power and they abuse that power towards those that they prejudice.

The majority has the responsibility to protect the rights of the minority, Thomas Jefferson put it well in his inaugural address.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

Slavery was a violation of the minority by White people against Blacks. There is simply no comparison at that scale and impact in US history against White people. It just doesn't exist. Likewise the more than 4000 lynchings that happened in the Southern states between 1870 and 1950 is another expression of that same hate and abusive of power by white people against blacks even after slavery ended.

The poverty rate in the US is racist as well... 26% of Blacks are poor vs about 10% of Whites. That's a massive disparity. The truth is that this inequality is a legacy of the hate expressed as a continuum since slavery and even beyond it since the rest of the nation has certainly expressed abused of power based on racism.

You can't force people to not be racist of any skin color towards another. You can try and enforce equality and that starts by recognizing the blatant truth, that things aren't and have never been equal for Blacks in the US.

[Nlambert]

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

On the bold, I personally do not feel a "disconnect" between myself and white Americans. I think people only believe that because they are too entrenched with following media and slanted internet sites that want to make everything and everyone have "issues" and "problems." I have white family members by both marriage and even blood related (distant cousins). To me all people are people, but in our society we do have different experiences based on ethnicity/race.

I agree with you 100%. The media and internet sites are stirring up racial tension like it hasn't been stirred in years. So how do we get people to stop buying into it?

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Because there is not a historical connotation between whites being the victims of systematic racism. I am speaking specifically about systematic racism, whereas laws were created or racist traditions were upheld that stated someone could not do something or they must do something or be a certain way based on their skin color. You have not experienced anything like this as a white person in America and IMO for you to insinuate that these minor things were systematic racism based on your skin color is silly.

Racism is racism. It's not right in any form. But to assume that my experience with racism is somehow less of an issue because it was not defined as "systematic" further goes to prove my point. It appears that racism experienced by a white person is supposed to be downplayed or considered unimportant or trivial if being compared to racism against anyone else. Laws were put in place to curb racism against blacks which I fully admit was a huge problem before the laws were established. I support those laws whole-heartedly. But racism shouldn't occur against ANYONE, and all instances are important to address.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Personally, I have been called a n*gg** b***ch at jobs multiple times. How many have you? I have had hiring managers (whites I have worked with) state they didn't want to hire a qualified black person because they had dreadlocks and it was "too ethnic" also because someone's name was "too ghetto" sounding. How often has this happened to you?

You're likely going to tell me that our experiences aren't relative, but I'll give them anyhow because they are relative to the conversation. I'm not a woman, so those terms have never been used on me. My wife however is 6ft tall and has been called an Amazon at work a few times by select men in her office at her previous job. It was appalling and heart breaking for her. She also has very curly hair and has been told that she needed to straighten it because "we don't want people thinking you're one of us".


I was turned down for a job that I fully qualified for because the floor manager of the company was black and I quote "We have enough white folks here right now. We will let you know if that changes." This is a national company, so I won't give their name.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

I have been asked repeatedly as a black woman in grocery stores if I am using or if I have "enough" on my "EBT" to get my groceries. How many times have you been asked this?

I have been told (when walking into a store with dirty work clothes after work) when my wife and I first started out that we need to make sure we have enough money to pay for everything before filling up a buggy. They didn't want to have to put everything back.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

I have been told by random strangers when I'm out with my kids and their friends/cousins (4-6 kids) that I should "keep my legs closed" and that I "shouldn't have so many kids" (I have 2 kids) and have gotten stupid, short lectures on black women and black mothers in particular. How often has this happened to you? I also get told repeatedly about what I need to do to fix black people in general.

Admittedly, I cannot relate to this point and I'm sorry you went through this.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

How often are you asked to fix white people? I doubt never. These above are also not cases of systematic racism (except the ones dealing with HR and FWIW these are only a few of VERY discriminatory things I have witnessed/experienced in working in an HR capacity).

Asked to fix white people? Probably never. Been told ad nauseum what is wrong with white people? More than I care to count.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

In regards to "minority" scholarships, that is another silly thing IMO that people like to bring up. Whites can get scholarships based on ethnicity (there are German, Irish, Polish, etc. American scholarships..) And a majority of black people do not get scholarships for being black. Also, white people get scholarships at HBCUs and even qualify for UNCF scholarships if they attend a UNCF member school.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Many of my co-workers went to college on minority scholarships and got a degree.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Because you are considered to be a "normal American" just because you are white. You are not considered to be inferior based on being black. The norm of society of you as a white person is not perpetual dysfunction.

Where is the data to back this up? I don't know of anyone that is considering a black person as inferior in anyone I know. This is where I begin to have heartburn. The notion that a black person is considered inferior to any other race is by large a self determination based off of history. Not present times.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

I doubt as well you hear blacks are "still oppressed" and that it "stems from slavery." However, I'm sure you hear what I stated, that racism is still around and that race based discrimination is a factor in the treatment of black people in America. Is it your contention that this is not an effect of slavery? It actually is. If you are willing to engage in a discussion about "race issues" in America, I'm sorry but slavery will be a part of that discussion.

Again, that is your belief that you are free to have. This goes back to our differences in our personal experiences. Why do you think I'm so passionate about the whole thing? I didn't wake up and decide to make this my issue. I got tired of dealing with it and decided to speak out on it. Racial discrimination is an effect of slavery. My point is that it gets brought up (in the circles I am in) more often that I'd care to continuously discuss it. (A lot of my friends are black, and we have similar discussions about the issue) Racism stemmed from slavery when slavery ended. Now it's time for racism to end. I agree that both white and black have work to do, but there comes a time where some acceptance of responsibility must happen. Accept that not all whites are racist and that you can succeed without every little thing being said as being racist, and at the same time (not after) whites should understand that we need to make a better effort to try and show blacks that we consider them our equals and nothing less.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Why are you afraid to discuss it? Why are you offended? Did you own slaves? Has anyone said you are directly to blame for slavery? I doubt that has happened either. IMO people like you are just too sensitive and suffer from white guilt syndrome. There is nothing for you to feel guilty about and me as a black person mentioning that I'm black and talking about my enslaved ancestors is not some sort of blame game intended to make you feel bad.

No fear here. If there were, I wouldn't be engaging in this very honest discussion with you. This subject is extremely taboo for most whites. I never owned slaves. I have no "white guilt". I do have disdain for those who assume that I do, or assume that because I will speak out I am racist. I'm a human being, the same as you. My ultimate goal is to STOP racism on BOTH sides.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

And the claims from whites of "reverse racism" is already in history books. This has been claimed by whites since the 1980s. It is not new.

But just as you have done thus far in our discussions, blacks attempt to downplay it as being a figment of our imagination. Let's assume it is. By that merit, do you not feel that maybe some blacks are too sensitive, and take a lot more things as racist than their intended meaning?

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

As a white person, why are you not more concerned about "some" of the white population who vastly outnumber the entire population of black people who are living in poverty and lead dysfunctional lives.

I am absolutely APPALLED at some of the white population who live in poverty as I came from there. Again, that is part of my reasoning behind speaking out. There are others who are struggling and having issues that are equally as important as issues that the black community face.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

I stated that gender and class discrimination exist. However, it is true that you have not faced any race based discrimination for being black. You do not understand that this sort of discrimination follows you wherever you go.

I grew up in a small town that was 85% black. I graduated high school as one of three white people in my class. I've been called cracker, honky, paleface, whitey, hillbilly, white trash, and peckerwood (look it up) to name a few. You have NO IDEA what I've had to face (just as I cannot say that I know what you've had to face either) in regards to racial discrimination. So why is it so difficult to understand that this is NOT a one way street? Just because my experience isn't the exact same as yours does not mean it isn't equally as offensive.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

It is interesting if you are a white male, that you feel you are discriminated against. You bring up statistics below in order to justify your stereotypes of black Americans, yet will you admit that statistically white men have the most power of any demographic in our country and our country is still ruled by white men (white capitalists primarily). Therefore, white men cannot be discriminated against by any institution in our society based solely on their racial identity.

Male, female, black, white, yellow, green.... in the grand scheme of things anyone can be discriminated against. Just because it may not be what the mainstream media tells you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Again, I don't consider myself disconnected from white people. I heard everything you said, but you are trying to prove to me and other readers on this forum, that as a white man, you are discriminated against in the same way as a black person...

Not in the same way... I admitted that we have different circumstances, but the results on how it affects us are very similar.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Well then you should stop making generalizations of black Americans. A majority of us are successful and upstanding citizens in all sorts of communities and are role models. You are not providing a "white perspective" you are providing your own personal perspective as am I. But FWIW I agree that too many white people have a perspective similar to yours (in that they generalize all black people as poor and dysfunctional and only speak of the "successful" and "upstanding" black people when confronted about the error of their words because of the pervasive negative stereotypes of black Americans in our country).

Please show me where I have made generalizations of all black Americans. You are saying that I am generalizing ALL black Americans and I have never attempted to do that (if so, please prove me otherwise and I will retract that statement because that was never my intent). Yes, there is a negative stereotype there. That doesn't mean it cannot be changed. But to assume that the stereotype will go away if whites don't talk about it or that it is a stereotype created by whites is a reaching assumption. The stereotype is there based on "some" (I highlighted that for you) black American's actions in their communities. And it is fully backed up by statistical data that cannot be refuted. It needs to be changed and I'm all for us all working together as a community to change it. But some personal responsibility must be assigned.

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

I don't need commendation for my "success." I am a regular, majority member of the black American demographic. My circumstances and "good decisions" are commonplace amongst black Americans.

Well excuse me for treating you as I do others who have had a successful life. This is one of those times where I guess you assume I am looking down on you? (Hint... I wasn't. This was a pre-conceived notion that you made about me)

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

Blacks as a group have never said whites "don't have issues." If anything in most conversations such as these black people, such as myself will tell whites like you that you do have issues and maybe you should focus on your issues versus trying to make yourselves fee superior by denigrating black people. I grew up in a VERY integrated community and the most dysfunctional people I knew were white people. They had similar and worse problems of black socioeconomically, however as I stated, they did not have to deal with being racially discriminated against based on skin color like black people were and still are.

I don't really know that "whites like me" are attempting to denigrate black people by speaking out. I tell you how I see it, you tell me how you see it, and then we find middle ground. At least that's how this works in normal (we ARE normal, right?) discussions.


Anyhow, I digress. It's becoming very obvious to me that you are not going to believe anything that I say and I will make the assumption that it is because I am white. You have all but proven that here. Despite your best efforts and your intent towards me, I wish you well and much success in the future. Maybe one day we will all figure this out.

[godofthunder9010]

Originally Posted by Julian658

Slavery went on from 1619 to 1865
Jim Crow 1877-1965

Blacks have only experience some sense of freedom for a bit more than 50 years.

Most black Americans are descendant of slaves.

It is not the same thing to be the son of a slave than to be the son of a merchant, a farm owner, a businessman, a doctor, a lawyer, a police officer, a school teacher, etc, etc.

Blacks started at ZERO and had ZERO education or training. They had no one to look up to as the families were broken apart.

American Blacks have done phenomenally well given the original position from where they started. And 51 years is not a long time since the end of Jim Crow.

Most people of European heritage like myself can look back for 500-1000 years of successful heritage where families were together and values were passed down. Blacks could not pass anything down because there was no family.

Some American blacks found a way to somehow have a family and those folks have done very well and surpassed many whites.

Oppression from 1619 until 1965 created a generation of people that was overtly sensitive to perceived racism. They have lived in stress for hundreds of years and that explains the hypersensitivity to cops and authority.

All essentially true. The black slave experience has been a terrible one.

Still, bear in mind that their experience is not unique. Everyone alive today probably has a significant portion of their ancestry that were enslaved at some time or another. White European heritage is by no means a utopia. If you're white, odds are you've got peasant ancestry not too far back, which is only slightly better than being a slave. Countless atrocities have occurred throughout human history, and slavery in America is just one of hundreds of examples. Everyone's ancestors experienced, survived and overcame bad stuff. It's what humans do.

Consider this. Let's there were a giant class-action lawsuit by every seriously obese person in the USA. They claim that the food industry made them fat. Okay, they're not wrong. There's crap in our food that significantly contributes to obesity. So the courts rule in their favor, ordering the food industry to "fix them." Okay, so how do you fix obesity? Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy fix. Losing a lot of weight ain't easy and keeping the weight off will require a total lifestyle change. There are things they've loved eating their whole life that they'll have to seriously limit or stop eating completely. They're going to have to add a lot more exercise to their daily routine as well. And it's much much much harder to lose the weight than it is to already be thin and keep the weight off. So how can the food industry deliver on "fixing them"?? At best, maybe they could pay for personal trainers and such, but all of the real work and sweat and pain and unpleasantness required to "fix them" has to be done by the victims.

Life just isn't fair, is it?? How come the victims have to do all the heavy lifting to fix the problems society afflicted them with?? Isn't that just terrible??

It's the same thing with all of the problems that plague black America. I for one would very much like to see it all "fixed." Trouble is, only black Americans can fix the problems in black America. Want stronger black families? Less black teenage pregnancy? Less black violent crime? Less black drugs? No more black gangs? What can I do to make black families stronger? How about the federal government? What can they do? Black Americans have got to want to change things. They've got to do it for themselves.

You keep doing similar threads. I get that you feel passionately about this. That's not a bad thing. Just realize that ultimately, only black America can fix black America.

[Nlambert]

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

All essentially true. The black slave experience has been a terrible one.

Still, bear in mind that their experience is not unique. Everyone alive today probably has a significant portion of their ancestry that were enslaved at some time or another. White European heritage is by no means a utopia. If you're white, odds are you've got peasant ancestry not too far back, which is only slightly better than being a slave. Countless atrocities have occurred throughout human history, and slavery in America is just one of hundreds of examples. Everyone's ancestors experienced, survived and overcame bad stuff. It's what humans do.

Consider this. Let's there were a giant class-action lawsuit by every seriously obese person in the USA. They claim that the food industry made them fat. Okay, they're not wrong. There's crap in our food that significantly contributes to obesity. So the courts rule in their favor, ordering the food industry to "fix them." Okay, so how do you fix obesity? Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy fix. Losing a lot of weight ain't easy and keeping the weight off will require a total lifestyle change. There are things they've loved eating their whole life that they'll have to seriously limit or stop eating completely. They're going to have to add a lot more exercise to their daily routine as well. And it's much much much harder to lose the weight than it is to already be thin and keep the weight off. So how can the food industry deliver on "fixing them"?? At best, maybe they could pay for personal trainers and such, but all of the real work and sweat and pain and unpleasantness required to "fix them" has to be done by the victims.

Life just isn't fair, is it?? How come the victims have to do all the heavy lifting to fix the problems society afflicted them with?? Isn't that just terrible??

It's the same thing with all of the problems that plague black America. I for one would very much like to see it all "fixed." Trouble is, only black Americans can fix the problems in black America. Want stronger black families? Less black teenage pregnancy? Less black violent crime? Less black drugs? No more black gangs? What can I do to make black families stronger? How about the federal government? What can they do? Black Americans have got to want to change things. They've got to do it for themselves.

You keep doing similar threads. I get that you feel passionately about this. That's not a bad thing. Just realize that ultimately, only black America can fix black America.

Careful here.... you're going to be labeled as one of "those white people" and told that you have no understanding of what it's like....

[WiseManOnceSaid]

Originally Posted by Julian658

Slavery went on from 1619 to 1865
Jim Crow 1877-1965

Blacks have only experience some sense of freedom for a bit more than 50 years.

Most black Americans are descendant of slaves.

It is not the same thing to be the son of a slave than to be the son of a merchant, a farm owner, a businessman, a doctor, a lawyer, a police officer, a school teacher, etc, etc.

Blacks started at ZERO and had ZERO education or training. They had no one to look up to as the families were broken apart.

American Blacks have done phenomenally well given the original position from where they started. And 51 years is not a long time since the end of Jim Crow.

Most people of European heritage like myself can look back for 500-1000 years of successful heritage where families were together and values were passed down. Blacks could not pass anything down because there was no family.

Some American blacks found a way to somehow have a family and those folks have done very well and surpassed many whites.

Oppression from 1619 until 1965 created a generation of people that was overtly sensitive to perceived racism. They have lived in stress for hundreds of years and that explains the hypersensitivity to cops and authority.

To refute your false narratives:

I'm 44 years old and although you mention 50 years that blacks have been free, I too have been free for my 44 years on this earth.

Most white Americans are descendants of slaves, we just called them indentured servants.

I am the son of an indentured servant.

I started with ZERO and had ZERO education or training. Thankfully the Feds provided me with something called public education.

I have done phenomenally well given the original position of where my ancestors started. Slaves and then dirt farmers...

I can look back 700 years into my family line and it has nothing to do with whether I'm a success or not. I was not born of money and will not be left anything by my parents in their wills.

I have a family and again, depending on what you consider success, I feel that I have raised my children to this point successfully.

I was not alive in 1619 or 1956 and so I am blind to your drummed up racism. I have a lot of stress in my life, and none of it makes me hypersensitive to cops and authority. But, when I was dealing drugs, using drugs, pimping women, driving while high, etc I certainly did have a lot of hypersensitivity to the police.

Quit making excuses and dwelling on the past and start trying to have a happy normal life for yourself. Whining on 400 years of oppression is going to make you a miserable human being. Try fishing or knitting or something positive.

[MPowering1]

Originally Posted by residinghere2007

On your bolded question, no I don't think that white people are discriminated in an equal way to black Americans.

I'm going to agree with you on this, but I do want to respectfully add that while white people cannot possibly know what it's like to be black, you cannot possibly know what it's like to be white.

When white people have made statements here about black people that weren't even negative in nature, they're often told they have no right to comment or get a response of, "What do YOU know about it?." Yet I see a lot of assumptions about white people from black people posted here with nobody saying anything rude in return.

Just so you know, many of us do feel there is a double standard. We've been taught to be more sensitive to others, and in our attempt to do so, we often just shut up, but the truth is, there are double standards.

I cannot know what it's like to be you, but it can suck to be me and have black people look at me with such contempt that I take pause. Why the hostile vibe when I just walked into a parking garage in Chicago or pass them on the street? I'm pretty well built for my age since I work out, I'm six feet tall, and can defend myself, but even I take pause.

It's not fun to have to let a person go and be told it's because they're black, which has happened over and over and over again, despite the fact that I hired them in the first place, have worked with them to make improvements, have documented where they were still failing, and had promoted other black people in the department.

To deny black people are racists, which many black people do because they claim that's impossible, is ridiculous. I know you're not saying that, I'm saying that's part of what WE deal with.

Add to that the percentage of people in both races who are perpetual victims. It's easy enough to spot the white victims, but harder to tell who among the black group are perpetual victims or just sincerely down on their luck.

And then there are those who keep saying "You owe us.....you owe us..." and ignore the fact that many of us have relatives who arrived after slavery ended and don't feel we owe anybody anything.

In one thread here, one of the black posters wrote that white people never want to help black people by "fixing things" with their schools, with their neighborhoods, etc. When I asked what they would have us fix - how we could help, the reply I got was, "Forget it! We don't want your help anyway!"

Is it any wonder some white people are throwing up their hands in disgust and saying, "I'm done"?

Can you understand that in any way?