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I'm third or fourth generation American. When my people that came before me, came here - they pledged allegiance to the United States of America. Even though I may not have 'bloodlines' here in this Country dating back to that time, I still feel loyalty to the people whose bloodlines were here, all of them. However, I don't feel that loyalty extends to the mistakes they made, large & small.
Slavery, owning people as property, was the sine qua non reason for the American Civil War. The CSA Articles of Secession, the CSA Constitution, campaign & other political speeches from the time, newspaper articles & editorials from the time, & letters written by both USA & CSA soldiers are evidence. Without slavery, the War does not happen.
The only important States' rights was the right to own people as property. This is made crystal clear through a reading of the CSA Constitution.
(I know you know all this Green - just supporting your position)
Not exactly. The Southern Colonies only joined the Revolution that started in Boston out of convenience. The South should have been a separate country from the start because they shared little to nothing in common with the Middle and New England colonies. The current Constitution is a compromise between the North and the South, an example being states being allowed to be slave or free but escaped slaves must be returned when found in the North due to the reciprocity clause.
Currently the "Red" states will have a potential problem on their hands. It will be a replay of the Industrial North vs. Southern interests once Trump starts championing re-industrialization but neglecting the growing Southern white-collar economy. This may recreate the CSA and/or Republic of Texas along with the blue West Coast and Northeastern states seceding due to anger with the rigged Electoral College results and an increasingly Chavez-style autocratic Trump administration.
1. Who is supposed to apologize? The modern individual? These people comprise individual modern US States, and they had nothing to do with slavery. John Doe from Georgia is supposed to "apologize", or apologize by proxy through the State of Georgia, for something that he had nothing to do with that was last existent 150 years ago? Not only does that make no sense, it'll never happen.
2. Someone might retort that an official "State" apology is what they are after, but the thing about that is that the state only exists as an entity of modern individuals that had nothing to do with slavery. Moreover, an apology would likely at least imply some type of responsibility for the living individuals of the State and, mark my words, their tax money would then be spent in a myriad of ways to quantify that "State" apology. State governments can not jeopardize their tax base nor can they cause their residents to be guilty by association.
3. African Americans are much wealthier than Africans. Their presence here is largely due to slavery. How do those who want apologies resolve their much desired presence here with the fact that their presence here is because of the slavery that they want an apology for? I might understand it for those who want to go back and renounce their US citizenship, but I would venture that would be very few. However, un-PC to point out, the harsh reality of the situation is that slavery was the price of African presence in this nation in any significant number.
4. Having the losers apologize for war is likely not going to be looked on kindly by history in the distant future, no matter how the morality changes. The reason for this is the obviousness as to why the losing side is compelled to apologize: they lost. This may seem like a good idea when you are speaking about institutions such as slavery, but in reality it undermines the moral foundation that holds slavery to be evil: no matter how solid you believe that foundation to be (remember, 150 years is not a long time in terms of social change). History will not look well on actions by winners that force losers to do petty things against their will outside of wartime. It looks like imperialism.
The South did change, which was the goal. I'd advise the Nation to be satisfied with that outcome, and not to unnecessarily poke a still new and currently very fragile social détente.
There is a concept called "political capital". I would read up on it until it is understood, and then be wary in how this capital is used. One could convincingly make a case that the reason that Donald Trump was elected was because the Left vastly outspent its actual political capital.
Essentially, the way to avoid undermining the modern moral narrative on the civil war is to allow history to take its natural course, going forward, as far as apologies are concerned. You may see an apology in the distant future, and it will be much more meaningful and less politically harmful if it comes naturally. If it doesn't come, then you did not unnecessarily spend political capital to attain a gesture that would have almost zero political benefit.
That's not a national holiday and actually represents racism towards black Americans continuing.
So no the same date as the emancipation proclamation or maybe the same date as when the racist and evil south surrendered to the nearly equally racist and evil United States which was according to Abraham Lincoln only saved due to black civil war soldiers who were the key to winning the war.
I'd say a national holiday on either of those dates is a must.
Yes, it was a political move. So what? So what if Lincoln didn't think much of Black people? Neither did the Confederates. My concern isn't Lincoln. My concern is why the South wanted secession so bad, it was willing to go to war.
At that time states rights was a big issue, and they did not want more fed gov control, they wanted to be able to determine what was best for each individual state, and yes slavery was one issue. I agree with some of their claims, with the exception of slavery.
How many times must I ask this? Reverse the roles. You'd be fine if you were a black man's "well treated" slave? Yes or No.
If the answer is no (and it should be unless you're lying), then stop defending and making ANY excuses for slavery and how "well some slaves were treated". They were OWNED by white people, like livestock.
White people do NOT get it!
I get it just fine, I guess I am not as sensitive about an issue that is over a 150 yrs. old. And no I would not be fine being anyone's slave, but if I had to be I would hope to be well treated.
You're in Greater Pittsburgh, up north. I live in the outskirts of metro Atlanta. I see them here. Some people fly them from their yards. Ignoring it where I live doesn't make it go away. Being priced out seems more likely.
They are protected under the 1st amendment, not saying they are right, but will defend their right to fly it.
How silly. The color of one's skin today does not give them any special perspective that anyone else might have about something not experienced by anyone alive today or for generations.
Furthermore, many 10s of 1000s of White people died in order to end slavery. They "got it" as you seem to completely ignore.
dearest ghostrider, you are doing neither yourself nor anyone else any good with your nonsense statement. of course there were some who treated their slaves like family. in fact 1 Vice President of the United States, took a slave as a common law wife. they had two kids. he loved his kids and insured their freedom. his wife died. he was devastated... then he took another slave common-law wife. she left him for another man. He sold her.
that kindness extended only so far.... they were still slaves to live and die at the whim of their "kind" masters.
your argument at best is pathetic. There is no answer except that slavery brought this country to its knees and somewhere north of 700,000 people died during the war that resulted. It was a horrible but necessary price to pay.
I have argued and will continue to argue that neither reparations, nor apologies make any since in the modern context since all the players are long dead... simi-colon-however-comma that is no justification for inane disgusting pathetic arguments to justify even if one in the same breath makes the claim they are not justifying....
Well take it how you like, I was only making a point as part of the discussion, but you have read into the mindset of that time in history.
Well take it how you like, I was only making a point as part of the discussion, but you have read into the mindset of that time in history.
believe me I fully understand the mindset. shoot, I have multiple great great grandpas and uncles that fought for the south.
There is a grave back where I grew up. in that grave are two familes. one family is an ancestor from my fathers side, and the other from my mothers side.
After the war, Jayhawkers came thru. They came into these two homes, raped the women while forcing the men to watch, then killed them all.
You better believe that I understand the mindset, then, during reconstruction, and now.
I wouldn't be too worried about whether the American South has apologized for an institution that disappeared within its territory 150 years ago.
A far more important question is: Have India, China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Mauritania, Uzbekistan, Qatar and all of the other nations where contemporary slavery is nominally illegal, but is nonetheless still practiced to this day, apologized for 1) permitting the practice of slavery in the past, and 2) failing to eliminate said practice today?
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