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Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,556 posts, read 16,542,682 times
Reputation: 6041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
Well this is why you need a radical analysis because first off you're never going to end some things that seem to be intrinsic to human nature and one of them is racism, sexism, etc. What can be undone are the harsh conditions placed on people whether it be racist, sexist and homophobic under the current capitalist class system. What radicals talk about or used to talk about back in the 60s and 70s weren't racism, sexism and other forms of oppression as things to abolish in and of themselves because that is sort of like saying lets all end hatred or envy. They talked about undoing the oppressions under this specific capitalist class system.
Right wingers make the mistake of making the older radicals out to be utopian, but they were never advocating for a better world in the hippie dippie sense where it was a utopia, but just a better world, a better system, to transition from. Sort of like how the world is better off after a transition from feudalism to capitalism. All of the same isms still exist but the harsher elements have been lessened to some degree. (and maybe some point in the future all these isms will be undone but for now it's just about transitioning to a better system)
If anything, it's the liberal view of this analysis that is utopian when you don't put class first. And it was never to say that racism doesn't matter. I don't even know where you got that but that class is first and the rest follows after that.
And this is what we disagree. I honestly believe the right wing(Conservatives and libertarians) are the ones arguing for the utopian, and in this case you are as you are saying class is the root problem, when like I and the other poster said, it doesnt eliminate the other problems.
Class = putting everyone on the same boat, but there is a difference between the fiesta cabin and the boiler room workers.
May I ask, do you know the history of why many say that(class vs Race), and why they believed so of Sanders ?
The other poster explained exactly that. Arguing class first usually ignores the problems or race(regardless of if it is intentional).
I think if you have a liberal analysis of racism in general it tends to anger you if you hear class first. And it isn't so much class first as it is class overall. Class first is usually the slur used against someone advocating a more radical analysis.
Arguing for class overall is not ignoring the problems of race or racism, but putting into context the issue of racism in the current economic system. Again, I say would today's SJWs get upset at a radical like Huey Newton? Do you really think that Bernie Sanders is anything but an ally to the cause of anti-racism? He was out there in the streets marching in the Civil Rights movement.
Read the later writings of MLK when they started calling him a commie for going about economic justice and how it was the next logical step in achieving overall social justice. If anything class completes the overall picture and to say that its racist to bring that up is to fly in the face of people who've been through this before, analyzed it and lived against the strong arm of the state when they mentioned class.
I don;t know why they have to be mutually exclusive? If anything they're complimentary. It's just that for radicals of the past, who put forward the most cogent analysis of the subjects put class "first" I guess you could say.
And this is what we disagree. I honestly believe the right wing(Conservatives and libertarians) are the ones arguing for the utopian, and in this case you are as you are saying class is the root problem, when like I and the other poster said, it doesnt eliminate the other problems.
Class = putting everyone on the same boat, but there is a difference between the fiesta cabin and the boiler room workers.
That's fine. You're liberal and that's ok. But how are conservatives arguing for the utopia? Libertarians I can kinda see because they believe in the absolute equilibrium of the free markets. But conservatives are more Hobbesian, no? They truly believe in the utter worst of the human conditions and that it needs to be tapered and it's best to not fool yourself with tales of a better world.
If anything they think that even transitioning into a different economic system is utopian. They universalize the current economic system as totally natural and do not believe any of it to be socially ordered. So they cannot be utopian. Explain yourself please.
And I already explained myself quite cogently that to just say 'end racism' is utopian, so it cannot be the root in terms of creating a better alternative. This isn't and shouldn't be about ending a root per se but uprooting an oppressive system.
If anything by alleviating the class antagonisms between people, that even ruling classes use against the working class when they try to mobilize together, you break the main racist chains that keep all people down.
And even then there wouldn't be a liberal anti racist measure that a radical wouldn't support. It's not like the radicals are saying no we cannot support BLM, it's that they think they should take it all the way to the bank, and not just stop there.
I think if you have a liberal analysis of racism in general it tends to anger you if you hear class first. And it isn't so much class first as it is class overall. Class first is usually the slur used against someone advocating a more radical analysis.
Arguing for class overall is not ignoring the problems of race or racism, but putting into context the issue of racism in the current economic system. Again, I say would today's SJWs get upset at a radical like Huey Newton? Do you really think that Bernie Sanders is anything but an ally to the cause of anti-racism? He was out there in the streets marching in the Civil Rights movement.
Read the later writings of MLK when they started calling him a commie for going about economic justice and how it was the next logical step in achieving overall social justice. If anything class completes the overall picture and to say that its racist to bring that up is to fly in the face of people who've been through this before, analyzed it and lived against the strong arm of the state when they mentioned class.
I don;t know why they have to be mutually exclusive? If anything they're complimentary. It's just that for radicals of the past, who put forward the most cogent analysis of the subjects put class "first" I guess you could say.
You're right and I don't think anyone should be arguing against the point. There's a reason Cornel West and Killer Mike backed Bernie from the start...no one can say those two don't care about race matters, but they know economic and social justice go hand-in-hand.
You're right and I don't think anyone should be arguing against the point. There's a reason Cornel West and Killer Mike backed Bernie from the start...no one can say those two don't care about race matters, but they know economic and social justice go hand-in-hand.
THANK YOU!!
I just wonder what liberals would think of Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, and Stokely Carmichael today? If we had those guys today with the new technology and the same platform as Shaun King it would be game over, no? Imagine that.
Or MLKs three ills of society speech; racism, poverty and militarism. What would people say about that?
If anything, what's funny is that I never paid attention to the old saying that the elites use race to break up a movement based on class and economic justice. I had always thought that was a conspiratorial part of radical thinking but looking back it's weird that it exploded onto the scene and divided enough people to where they can't stand ANY leftist platform. It's all just SJW stuff to people now. Or it doesn't have the kick to truly elicit true social change.
Thats just a thought, don't get upset at me. I am just throwing it out there and I do not mean that it may be the case. It's sort of midnight late night conspiracy jest talk.
The oppositional 2 party system in the US lends itself to coalitions. You focus more on the things that part of your coalition really wants or everyone agrees on and let disagreements lie when you would be castigating the other side for holding views your allies do. Other things get deprioritized. Nature of the beast.
It's therefore inevitable that the Democrats become less traditionally leftist as the identity politics group cohort has and continues to grow as people who are traditionally left but don't hold with that stuff leave the party. Meanwhile, the Republicans taking in those ex-Democrats will become less traditionally conservative as a result. You see a symptom of this with the triumph of more economically moderate but identity focused candidates in each primary; Trump beating Cruz & Rubio, and Clinton beating Bernie.
Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,556 posts, read 16,542,682 times
Reputation: 6041
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
I think if you have a liberal analysis of racism in general it tends to anger you if you hear class first. And it isn't so much class first as it is class overall. Class first is usually the slur used against someone advocating a more radical analysis.
to be clear, Im only saying class first because you have, and you have done so without any negative connotation to it. Its conversational dialect, not an attempt to attack you. I have probably never used the phrase class first before this conversation.
let me quote you just so you understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
If anything, it's the liberal view of this analysis that is utopian when you don't put class first.
see you didnt mean class first as a negative there.
Quote:
Arguing for class overall is not ignoring the problems of race or racism, but putting into context the issue of racism in the current economic system. Again, I say would today's SJWs get upset at a radical like Huey Newton? Do you really think that Bernie Sanders is anything but an ally to the cause of anti-racism? He was out there in the streets marching in the Civil Rights movement.
Read the later writings of MLK when they started calling him a commie for going about economic justice and how it was the next logical step in achieving overall social justice. If anything class completes the overall picture and to say that its racist to bring that up is to fly in the face of people who've been through this before, analyzed it and lived against the strong arm of the state when they mentioned class.
I don;t know why they have to be mutually exclusive? If anything they're complimentary. It's just that for radicals of the past, who put forward the most cogent analysis of the subjects put class "first" I guess you could say.
The bold is the problem or rather, the solution.
You may have misunderstood me, but what I have been trying to say is that when class is usually brought up, it is a form of "All lives matter".
It doesnt have to be, but that tends to be what it is. You seem to believe, like I do, that both can be addressed.
but again, that hasnt been what has happened in the past. When class has been put above all else, people of color tend to get left behind. MLK actually spoke of that when talking about Governor Wallace as a "progressive Democrat", and that is exactly what most black people think about when they hear "class".
The oppositional 2 party system in the US lends itself to coalitions. You focus more on the things that part of your coalition really wants or everyone agrees on and let disagreements lie when you would be castigating the other side for holding views your allies do. Other things get deprioritized. Nature of the beast.
It's therefore inevitable that the Democrats become less traditionally leftist as the identity politics group cohort has and continues to grow as people who are traditionally left but don't hold with that stuff leave the party. Meanwhile, the Republicans taking in those ex-Democrats will become less traditionally conservative as a result. You see a symptom of this with the triumph of more economically moderate but identity focused candidates in each primary; Trump beating Cruz & Rubio, and Clinton beating Bernie.
Wow, good stuff. The right populist wing of the Republican Party grew while the traditional more free trade wing suffered. And on the left, the pro-globalization Clintonian wing grew while the more left wing elements was curbed.
What a weird, weird world. The momentum was there under Sanders and if that would've continued who knows where we would've been.
to be clear, Im only saying class first because you have, and you have done so without any negative connotation to it. Its conversational dialect, not an attempt to attack you. I have probably never used the phrase class first before this conversation.
let me quote you just so you understand.
see you didnt mean class first as a negative there.
The bold is the problem or rather, the solution.
You may have misunderstood me, but what I have been trying to say is that when class is usually brought up, it is a form of "All lives matter".
It doesnt have to be, but that tends to be what it is. You seem to believe, like I do, that both can be addressed.
but again, that hasnt been what has happened in the past. When class has been put above all else, people of color tend to get left behind. MLK actually spoke of that when talking about Governor Wallace as a "progressive Democrat", and that is exactly what most black people think about when they hear "class".
I can see where the confusion is and why African Americans view the progressive Democrat talk with skepticism. I truly do and you can see that even when Western societies became more social democratic it didn't do much to stem racism. That is a given but while it's good to ally with social democrats, the majority of their analysis is still reformist and liberal. I am talking about the only time people of color had a much more cogent analysis of their oppressive conditions was through the radical lense. Reforming and reforming won't do anything but alleviate the symptoms, truly radical social change is needed and it begins through the economic system first. Change the economic system and the social antagonisms will lessen to a markedly substantial difference. The whole point of radical thought is that we live in a world of contradictions, some are natural and some are not. Try to change the some that are not, the social order, to stem the ones that are natural (our natural tendency toward prejudice).
Wow, good stuff. The right populist wing of the Republican Party grew while the traditional more free trade wing suffered. And on the left, the pro-globalization Clintonian wing grew while the more left wing elements was curbed.
What a weird, weird world. The momentum was there under Sanders and if that would've continued who knows where we would've been.
If Sanders has won the primary but lost the election, in a similar place to where we are now, with the Trump presidency pouring gasoline on the ongoing realignment of the two parties. If Sanders had won both the primary and the election, it would have changed the trend and aligned the parties more on economic lines again.
edit: In my estimation, of course, none of us can accurately predict something which didn't happen.
Last edited by ALackOfCreativity; 02-21-2017 at 10:46 PM..
Reason: grammar
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