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Old 06-23-2017, 11:22 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
So a lot of Republicans still believe trickle down economics works. It will work to insure more poor people.
As did Obama's Trickle Up.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,869,992 times
Reputation: 15839
The key idea of insurance is that it is a method of paying for the unexpected such as an automobile accident or a hurricane damaging your house. Only in the case of so-called life insurance (which is not "life" insurance at all) is it regarding the inevitable.

In the realm of healthcare, insurance should be for the unexpected: a broken bone or severe illness, for example.

We all own automobiles and have car insurance. We know in advance that we will need to change the motor oil and brake pads at some point, so we would never dream of asking State Farm or Geico to pay for oil changes and brake pads. Similarly, we know in advance that each of us will get the common cold and flu, so why then should we expect Aetna or United Healthcare to pay for treatment?

Pregnant women and their doctors know many months in advance when childbirth will occur. Why then do we finance it using the same method as an automobile collision on the highway -- that is, by submitting an insurance claim form for an unexpected event to an insurance company?

Imagine a bizzaro world where groceries were paid through a food insurance company. We each would pay insurance premiums, we each would go to the grocery store loading our cart with food -- ignoring the price tags because our actual food prices were negotiated by each insurance company. Our food would be scanned at the cash register, and we would make a "co-pay." The grocery store would employ armies of billing clerks who would make sure they code insurance claims forms in such a way as to maximize reimbursement; the insurance companies would employ similar armies of clerks to uncover excess billing and disallow certain food purchases (you bought name-brand twinkies instead of generic store-brand twinkies). The grocery store would submit the bill to an insurance company, which would pay pre-arranged prices, and the two would argue over such things as "grocery cart fee" and the like. Ultimately, months later, we would receive an "Explanation of Benefits (EOB)" and owe the balance to the grocery store. We all would scream about how expensive it was, and politicians would subsidize the process, rewarding its inefficiency, and there would be the usual screams that The Rich were not paying enough or that Corporations were to blame.

The above makes zero sense; so why do we have such a ridiculous system for health care?

* The system we had prior to Obamacare was flawed and collapsing.
* The Obamacare system is flawed and collapsing.
* The proposed system is flawed and will collapse if implemented.

All of these legislative approaches focus on the financing of health care insurance rather than the underlying problem of the price of health care itself.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,869,992 times
Reputation: 15839
Look, Health care just costs too damn much, and I suspect everyone agrees with that statement. Just where in the hell is all that health care money going?
  • Medical doctors typically have a nice income, but they are not getting rich.
  • Hospital administrators typically also have a very nice income, but they are not getting rich (no yachts or private jets.)
  • Nurses are not getting rich.
  • Respiratory therapists are not getting rich.
  • X-Ray techs are not getting rich.
  • Physical therapists are not getting rich.
  • Health insurance companies profits are regulated under Obamacare so they are not getting rich, although senior executives make a lot of money -- but they don't own yachts or private jets.

The cost of health care has about quintupled since 1970. ... The average 1960 worker spent ten days’ worth of their yearly paycheck on health insurance; the average modern worker spends sixty days’ worth of it, a sixth of their entire earnings.

Soooo..... where is all the money going?

Broadly speaking, over the past fifty years in inflation-adjusted dollars, education costs have at least doubled, college costs have dectupled, health insurance costs have dectupled, subway costs have at least dectupled, and housing costs have increased by about fifty percent. US health care costs about four times as much as equivalent health care in other First World countries; US subways cost about eight times as much as equivalent subways in other First World countries.

And this is especially strange because we expect that improving technology and globalization ought to cut costs. In 1983, the first mobile phone cost $4,000 – about $10,000 in today’s dollars. It was also a gigantic piece of crap. Today you can get a much better phone for $100. This is the right and proper way of the universe. It’s why we fund scientists, why startups go public, and why we pay technical innovators the big bucks.

Even with increases in technology, things like college and health care have still had their prices dectuple instead of being cut. Patients can now schedule their appointments online with a smart phone; doctors can send prescriptions through the fax or via a secure email system, pharmacies can keep track of medication histories on centralized computer systems that interface with the cloud, nurses get automatic reminders when they’re giving two drugs with a potential interaction, insurance companies accept payment through credit cards -----
----- and all of this costs ten times as much as it did in the days of IBM punch cards and secretaries who did calculations by hand with a manual crank adding machine.

And it’s actually even worse than this. A lot of these services have decreased in quality, presumably as an attempt to cut costs even further. For women who give birth in the hospital, the standard length of stay was 8 to 14 days in the 1950s but declined to less than 2 days by today. The doctors I talk to say this isn’t because modern women are healthier, it’s because they kick them out as soon as it’s safe in order to cut costs. Historic records of hospital care generally describe leisurely convalescence periods and making sure somebody felt absolutely well before letting them go; this seems bizarre to anyone who has participated in a modern hospital, where the mantra is to kick people out as soon as they’re “stable” i.e. not in acute crisis.

I don’t know why more people don’t just come out and say “LOOK, REALLY OUR MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT ALL THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS COST TEN TIMES AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO FOR NO REASON, PLUS THEY SEEM TO BE GOING DOWN IN QUALITY, AND NOBODY KNOWS WHY, AND WE’RE MOSTLY JUST DESPERATELY FLAILING AROUND LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS HERE.” State that clearly, and a lot of political debates take on a different light.

Important things such as health care, education, roads & bridges, subways & other public infrastructure cost 10 times as much, 10 times more than they used to and 10 times more than in other countries.

It's not going to wages.
It's not going to profits.
So where is it going?

The unavoidable answer: The number of people it takes to produce these goods is skyrocketing. Labor productivity -- quality adjusted output per number of people involved in the entire process -- declined by a factor of 10 in these areas. It pretty much has to be that: if the money is not going to profits or to to each employee in the form of higher wages, then it must be going to the number of employees.

It's all about administrative bloat.

There are 2.5 people handling insurance claims for every doctor. And that's just at the medical practices & hospitals; the insurance companies have armies of people working on the claims as well.

So, my bottom line: administrative bloat.

Having a government sponsored single-payer system is a radical idea -- but it does not address the root cause of administrative bloat. Imagine how many people are involved at doctor's offices, hospitals, and other health care providers who do not take care of patients but are employed merely to process the damn paperwork. With a government single payer system, those employees still have jobs. Now, imagine all the employees at insurance companies who process health insurance forms & policies and whatnot. With a government sponsored single-payer system, the Government will need to hire about that number of people -- and then add another 20% to 30% for government inefficiencies.

At the end of the day, government single payer just doesn't solve the problem.

There are some areas that are improving. The for-profit field of LASIK eye surgery is a great example. Except in very rare cases, health insurance does not cover Lasik. So Ophthalmologists who specialize in LASIK just don't have that administrative bloat -- they don't have armies of clerks skilled in how to code insurance forms so as to maximize the payment from the provider. The end result is the quality of LASIK has improved dramatically while the price of LASIK has plummeted. Ditto for many cosmetic surgical procedures such as breast implants, breast reduction, butt lifts & implants, chin lifts & tummy tucks. Quality has gone up while costs have gone down.

It is in the other section of medical care -- the section where insurance companies and the government are involved -- that's where the bloat occurs.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,078 posts, read 51,239,172 times
Reputation: 28324
Every medical provider group out there has announced their opposition to the senate version of Trumpcare with many characterizing it as "heartless". All of them.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:24 PM
 
2,333 posts, read 1,489,626 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Every medical provider group out there has announced their opposition to the senate version of Trumpcare with many characterizing it as "heartless". All of them.
What about insurance cos?
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,297 posts, read 26,217,746 times
Reputation: 15646
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Voting for TrumpCare is voting for the ACA without funding it - and with giving more money out of debt and deficit to the very wealthy.

How could any conservative or Sen. Paul support making things worse?

The only reason(s) I can imagine are:
1. We still hate that Kenyan and even anything good he did has to go.
2. We make in excess of 350K a year and don't want to pay a couple percent of the excess
3. We just love anything with the Trump name on it - who cares about dead or suffering people?

I can't think of any other reasoning...
Senator Paul is not far from Price, his plan is very strong on HSA's, tax deductions and interstate plans which we already have for the most part. Also small buisnesses banding together to form Association Health Plans. Someone making above the poverty threshold or even middle class, what good do tax breaks or savings accounts do for those with a severe illness.


https://www.paul.senate.gov/imo/medi...ctSections.pdf
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,850 posts, read 26,285,621 times
Reputation: 34059
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
UPDATE: The Oklahoma Health Care Authority said it might need to cut reimbursements to doctors and other Medicaid health care providers by about 4 percent on July 1, even though its appropriation was increased 4.2 percent compared to what it received in the current fiscal year. Because of projected cost increases, the authority said it needed a 7 percent budget increase to maintain the status quo for SoonerCare, the state’s Medicaid program.

So inflation of medical costs needs to get under control.
Given that there is no immediate fix for that..and the Senate bill certainly doesn't address it, maybe Oklahoma should reverse some of the tax cuts that caused this mess in the first place..

A recent study of effective tax rates, including property taxes, paid by the oil and gas industry in nine major energy states shows Oklahoma's rate of 3.2 percent is the lowest. Neighboring Texas, the largest producer, had an effective rate of 8.3 percent. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...e-among-oilmen

What are they even thinking? My neighbor is a special needs teacher and I guess she went to some national conference and there was lots of talk about Oklahoma schools, she said they are planning on only offering 4 days of school and lots of teachers are quitting to go to work in other states? I have no source for that, so I'm not sure if it's an exaggeration or not but it sounds awful
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:24 PM
 
2,842 posts, read 2,329,046 times
Reputation: 3386
Call your senators and ask them to vote no on this. It's a really bad bill.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:25 PM
 
10,765 posts, read 4,349,095 times
Reputation: 5829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spot View Post
Call your senators and ask them to vote no on this. It's a really bad bill.
Its better than Obamacare.
Obamacare doesn't even have insurers.
Trumpcare will.
If you vote "no" you are voting for something without insurers.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:29 PM
 
16,376 posts, read 22,490,585 times
Reputation: 14398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spot View Post
Call your senators and ask them to vote no on this. It's a really bad bill.
Here is a link to all US Senators. Everyone - pick your state and the 2 Senators for that state are listed.

Within each Senator's web site is a section that says either Contact Me or Email Me. From there you get a web form. Fill it out with your comments. Copy your comments from the 1s senator and paste them into the box for the 2nd senator so you don't have to retype the message.

https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/
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