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NATO was formed nearly 70 years ago, with one primary purpose. To contain the Soviet Union, thereby preventing the expansion of Communism. The SU died nearly 30 years ago-and with it, the need for NATO. It is long since time to disband it and let European nations provide for their own defense. Or not, as the case may be. Either way-it's not the function of Americans to die defending Europeans, nor the place of American taxpayers to do so. We have sacrificed far too many young Americans for the sake of others around the world. Dissolve both NATO and the UN. Let American workers keep that money in their own pockets.
Are you sure they have no current designs on expansion?
What, the USSR? In case you haven't noticed, there hasn't been a USSR since 1989. Russia? Who cares, they are less Communist these days than most European countries.
What, the USSR? In case you haven't noticed, there hasn't been a USSR since 1989. Russia? Who cares, they are less Communist these days than most European countries.
That right there is why the Left hates them so much.
That's exactly what the left doesn't understand. They complain about US military spending while not realizing that much of that is due to the other members of NATO not paying what they owe.
They don't pay because they don't value NATO. So why should I value it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest
many of us would prefer to pay nothing to protect the border between Montenegro and Russia.
Damn skippy.
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Originally Posted by itsjustmeagain
Why does everybody dance around the reason that NATO exists?
To keep America in, the Russians out and the Germans down.
Do we really want an United Europe lead by Germany? The last time it happened, it didn't turn out that well.
I'm not implying that it's the same generation.
But there is a reason why every President since Truman wanted to tie Europe to the United States.
Now we have a situation where the British are leaving the EU, we have a President that really wants to see Europe go off on it's own or at least gave that impression.
We may rue the day when the Germans are not tied down by transatlantic bonds.
In the end the Germans will probably end up leading an United Europe but we need to cultivate whatever ties we have.
It's not a day to rejoice when we weaken the transatlantic ties.
All this nonsense about NATO being "obsolete" is really idiotic. We are shooting ourselves in the foot.
NATO being outdated may have made sense in the 90's when Russia had disappeared. Russia is back.
It's now half way in Ukraine, it took a piece of Georgia, threatening Estonia and busing our airplanes.
That's why we had NATO in the first place and that's why it is not obsolete and why we need it.
We will rue the day if we are the ones causing NATO breaking up.
The Europeans don't value the alliance enough to pay for it.
And yes...I want a Europe led by Germany to go off on its own. Absolutely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
The bottom line being that we aren't TRYING to shoehorn ourselves in....we're already neck deep with NATO.
So the point would be that we either stay in NATO and lean on other members to pay in more if we feel that's appropriate or exit NATO.
Also, Obama was saying the exact same thing throughout 2016.
As long as we are still in NATO, I agree with both of them.
Obama was wrong. Dead wrong.
Why should we value an alliance with a partner that tells us to kick rocks?? Are you that desperate for love that's consistently unrequited?
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945
Absolutely. We also have to ask this question: How many foreign countries have their bases in the US ? How many American bases are spread throughout the rest of the world ? Should we just plop ourselves down on their soil and expect to pay nothing ? The security we gain from our bases being in those places is extremely important and we should pay for that courtesy.
NATO offers us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the way of security. This nation was safe long before the creation of NATO. The Europeans drew us into their stupid wars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwood66
NATO is a cost we have to pay because as someone said earlier the US cannot support any kind of conflict operations halfway around the world without having bases to operate from and allies to work with us. The intelligence locations are absolutely needed as well at all times. Trump is saying out loud and with his boisterous fashion what past presidents have been pleading in private for years. His shame tactics are a bit crass and I don't like his manner one whit but if it gets other nations to stop taking advantage then I have to concede that it worked. If you don't hold someone's feet to the fire, like desertdetroiter said, why continue to pay because we just get walked on.
We're bribing the Europeans for their friendship, and we actually have the nerve to complain about it.
Shame tactics aren't working. Why? Because NATO isn't of value to them. They have no interest in ponying up more money to help maintain American hegemony.
The Europeans see the game better than Americans do. They're smart. We're stupid.
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Originally Posted by Wapasha
Because no president since Carter has been able to get NATO to pay their fair share.
After two world wars starting because of Europe, it is in our national interest to try and prevent a third war.
No it isn't. You're condoning Bribery. You're telling me that Americans should be extorted for billions so that Europeans won't threaten to tear each other's heads off?
What other region of the world should Americans conduct extortion diplomacy? Africa? They'd actually appreciate the billions of dollars in exchange for not fighting each other.
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Originally Posted by Vector1
I am surprised you really seem to be asking this self evident question.
America got involved in both WW1 & WW2 and lost a lot of treasure as a result. So NATO was put into place to stop communist insurgency and also help to keep the peace in that region of the world. Now with Europe under siege with Muslim extremists (some of it due to their own stupidity), NATO can help to prevent them from taking over and then forcing us to come in and clean up the mess.
We have a strategic interest in Europe and the Middle East, and do not want to be forced to repel another nation/s hell bent of world domination. NATO thus protects Europe while also protecting our own interests.
/Thread
So Europeans are so bloodthirsty as a group, that we Americans must bribe them not to kill each other off? Meanwhile, we should trim social spending in THIS country?
So when an American baby is born, we should stick a bill for Europe's defense in his/her incubator?
Our interests? What interests? The United States has no pressing security interests in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
"Why does Trump keep browbeating NATO members to "pay more?""
"What's the point? This is stupid. If NATO member nations see no point in paying more, then why should they pay more?
They SIGNED a document stating that they would pay their share
Just like a contract.
Gee, and I thought you knew everything.Let me ask ypu a questionYou stop paying your car insurance and it expires and have an accidentDo you think they should cover the repair costs?
"This is stupid."
No, your question is STUPID!
My question is stupid? Really?
Then you come up with THE stupidest analogy in the thread! Car insurance? SMH
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CONTRACT, GENIUS!!!
You value the alliance more than they do. They don't want to pay more money to maintain global hegemony for YOUR country!!! You don't understand that Slow Enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
"The alliance is for THEIR security, not ours."
WRONG, again!
Geezus Christ!
This must be the "you're on dope or dogfood?" thread.
What security does Europe offer the United States?
That right there is why the Left hates them so much.
Exactly. The left was always supportive of Russia. Right up to the time they dumped Communism. Any question as to why they still embrace Cuba and Venezuela so much? Never mind that Communism has actually made life hell for the citizens of those countries.
Exactly. The left was always supportive of Russia. Right up to the time they dumped Communism. Any question as to why they still embrace Cuba and Venezuela so much? Never mind that Communism has actually made life hell for the citizens of those countries.
NATO is a cost we have to pay because as someone said earlier the US cannot support any kind of conflict operations halfway around the world without having bases to operate from and allies to work with us. The intelligence locations are absolutely needed as well at all times. Trump is saying out loud and with his boisterous fashion what past presidents have been pleading in private for years. His shame tactics are a bit crass and I don't like his manner one whit but if it gets other nations to stop taking advantage then I have to concede that it worked. If you don't hold someone's feet to the fire, like desertdetroiter said, why continue to pay because we just get walked on.
Under which circumstances would an aggressor threaten US sovereignty from half a world away requiring non-strategic weaponry (strategic weaponry is not based in Europe anyway)?
Now it could threaten economic issues for US based corporations, but that's not the stated and defined role of the US Armed forces. Also why should US Corporations receive a US military bodyguard at the expense of the US taxpayer?
Yes certain issues need support of allies, like say Israel (not a NATO member) or Saudi (I need a shower now, and not a NATO member) or Japan (not a NATO member). In fact the biggie is intelligence which is AUSCANNZUKUS, only Canada and the UK are members, and that needn't change, Australia and New Zealand are not NATO members either.
Just not seeing the need for NATO in the defense of US Sovereignty.
Under which circumstances would an aggressor threaten US sovereignty from half a world away requiring non-strategic weaponry (strategic weaponry is not based in Europe anyway)?
Now it could threaten economic issues for US based corporations, but that's not the stated and defined role of the US Armed forces. Also why should US Corporations receive a US military bodyguard at the expense of the US taxpayer?
Yes certain issues need support of allies, like say Israel (not a NATO member) or Saudi (I need a shower now, and not a NATO member) or Japan (not a NATO member). In fact the biggie is intelligence which is AUSCANNZUKUS, only Canada and the UK are members, and that needn't change, Australia and New Zealand are not NATO members either.
Just not seeing the need for NATO in the defense of US Sovereignty.
Spot on.
No one can seem to come up with any kind of explanation as to how NATO gives us any security guarantees or protects us from an existential threat. All I see it doing is helping the United States maintain hegemony over a region that doesn't want to be under our security purview and DEFINITELY doesn't want to pay for it.
Why would European nations pay for American hegemony, and why do Americans expect European contributions to be offered up to help maintain it? That's ridiculous.
That's like inviting your neighbor to come over and boss around you, have his way with your wife, and slap your kids around while he raids your refrigerator, sleeps in your bed, and controls your TV remote....all while you give him money for doing so!
...
What security does Europe offer the United States?
Well, there is that little matter of us getting hauled into two different World Wars over skirmishes that started in Europe. Be nice to avoid WWIII if we could.
On the other hand, the chance of Mexico or Canada invading us are pretty slim. So if we leave Europe to their own devices, we can cut military way back. All we might need are anti-ballistic missile defense.
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