Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes, the whole "Phoebe Snow" and hard coal being clean burning for passenger convenience or whatever was a crock.
I'm not sure why it would be a "crock". The only soot emissions from anthracite is a very light gray fly ash and most of that settles in the bottom of the chimney or flue pipe. You aren't going to detect this with your eye. I'm not that familiar with the operation of locomotive but if there was enough air flow you could creat the conditions to lift more of that light gray material out of the stack but it's certainly isn't going to be comparable to soft coal. I'll be more than happy to compare soot emissions from my stoker boiler compared to oil. I don't think I'm too far off to suggest that a modern diesel locomotive would be dirtier than one powered by anthracite.
Here is chimney that was in use for about 5 years 24/7/365, it got hit with a tree but it allows you to see the nice clean flue. Generally speaking you can go decades without cleaning a flue used with anthracite and even then it's almost pointless.
Can you feel the heat?
Last edited by thecoalman; 10-12-2017 at 08:48 PM..
China already knows the coal era is over, and is transitioning energy sources to renewable sources. The president just wants to make the US fall further behind the scientific and technological curve compared to developed nations with ludicrous policy decisions.
This is simply false according to the New York Times:
Still pressing ahead building coal plants, both in China and abroad. Oh, they'll say what the west wants to hear, but they continue to do what they do.
I'm not sure why it would be a "crock". The only soot emissions from anthracite is a very light gray fly ash and most of that settles in the bottom of the chimney or flue pipe. You aren't going to detect this with your eye. I'm not that familiar with the operation of locomotive but if there was enough air flow you could creat the conditions to lift more of that light gray material out of the stack but it's certainly isn't going to be comparable to soft coal. I'll be more than happy to compare soot emissions from my stoker boiler compared to oil. I don't think I'm too far off to suggest that a modern diesel locomotive would be dirtier than one powered by anthracite.
Here is chimney that was in use for about 5 years 24/7/365, it got hit with a tree but it allows you to see the nice clean flue. Generally speaking you can go decades without cleaning a flue used with anthracite and even then it's almost pointless.
Can you feel the heat?
By "crock" one meant that the D&H (later became DL&W) wasn't exactly burning anthracite coal out of the pure kindness or whatever of their customers. Rather again because they had access to the stuff cheaply and like many other railroads D&H burnt that they could get (often locally) at good prices. The benefits of burning anthracite coal (less soot and so forth) certainly helped in the advertising and of course were welcomed, but if the RR had to pay a premium for it one doubts if DL&W would have bothered.
It wasn't just the DL&W that used anthracite, but many other PA railroads did as well. Again the state is full of the stuff and railroads not only made their money hauling that coal but many owned mines as well. As such anything that could be done to promote the use and create demand for anthracite coal benefitted such railroads in several ways.
The Phoebe Snow marking campaign not only promoted the use of hard coal for rail travel, but the virtues of anthracite coal for a variety of uses.
Another thing was that due to nature of anthracite coal it required locomotives that were designed with among other things a firebox that was capable of burning hard coal properly. This lead to the invention of the Wooton firebox and Camelback locomotives.
In any event as you yourself know (we assume) excessive smoke and or soot from burning coal is a sign of waste. It means whomever is in control of the fire (fireman, housewife, etc...) wasn't doing the job properly.
Steam locomotive design just as with other boilers soon came up with "smokeless furnaces/boilers" that could give the benefits of hard coal (less or nil smoke), but burned the cheaper semi bituminous, bituminous coal, and or other fuels.
Controlled firing of a coal burning steam locomotive or anything else done properly meant there should be little if any smoke. Certainty not the billowing clouds of thick black exhaust many associate with steam locomotives.
Still pressing ahead building coal plants, both in China and abroad. Oh, they'll say what the west wants to hear, but they continue to do what they do.
In any event as you yourself know (we assume) excessive smoke and or soot from burning coal is a sign of waste. It means whomever is in control of the fire (fireman, housewife, etc...) wasn't doing the job properly.
I don't even think you can get anthracite to smoke if you tried, if there is way to do it I'm not aware of it. You fill up the firebox completely and adjust the under fire air,there is no overfire air. More air is more heat, less air is less heat. Complicated right? Since most people are using these for supplementary heat they will set the air as high as they can but low enough they have enough fire after 12 hours to keep it going with refill. If you cut the air down to it's lowest point some have had them idle along for more than 48 hours. To quote the one guy after his first season that used wood for 25 years "I wish I knew about this 25years ago".
The automatic stokers operate differently, they have forced air and they starve the coal of coal of air when it's shut off and the smaller size of the coal cuts it off too. The smaller stokers will lose fire after about 1/2 an hour, the larger ones can go 6 plus hours. At no point during this idling phase or eventual startup will there be any smoke.
The fine control you can have over coal is what makes it great for home heating compared to other solid fuels. There is no such things as good fire in the same sense as wood, a good fire is one putting out the heat you want.
It has a very high carbon content and AFAIK that is the main reason it doesn't smoke. There is some people using soft coal and I know there are techniques for reducing the soot emissions from it. They need to be operated more like a fireplace and I believe they are using some overfire air just as you would with wood.
Still pressing ahead building coal plants, both in China and abroad. Oh, they'll say what the west wants to hear, but they continue to do what they do.
So you're saying that we should be exactly like China and not be a global leader in energy technologies. Got it!
So you're saying that we should be exactly like China and not be a global leader in energy technologies. Got it!
Chinese solar manufactures with state backing are using electric mostly generated by coal to export most of their product to place like the US. This is trend with the Chinese where they will focus on specific products like steel, tires, rare earth elements... The intention is to drive the competition out of business such as you have seen occur with so many US manufacturers.
We are effectively subsidizing the Chinese manufactures and along with the Chinese state backing it makes them very cheap. Anyway you slice it you will not get ahead of the Chinese without a dramatic increase in the prices of the panels.
They will add renewable capacity and other capacity not tied to coal over the coming decades because they have no choice, their domestic supply is very limited relative to their consumption. In the meantime they they will burn every piece of coal they can get their hands on.
Chinese solar manufactures with state backing are using electric mostly generated by coal to export most of their product to place like the US. This is trend with the Chinese where they will focus on specific products like steel, tires, rare earth elements... The intention is to drive the competition out of business such as you have seen occur with so many US manufacturers.
We are effectively subsidizing the Chinese manufactures and along with the Chinese state backing it makes them very cheap. Anyway you slice it you will not get ahead of the Chinese without a dramatic increase in the prices of the panels.
They will add renewable capacity and other capacity not tied to coal over the coming decades because they have no choice, their domestic supply is very limited relative to their consumption. In the meantime they they will burn every piece of coal they can get their hands on.
China engaged in dumping of solar photovoltaics to under cut the US industry, one of the reasons for failure by some of our companies. Many of their industries are subsidized by the government but that was not the issue regarding solar. China is going in two directions, increased use of coal for the time being but also a leader in green energy.
We should not be going back in time and the EPA's concern should be environmental policy not energy needs, that's Rick Perry's job not Scott Pruitt. You either believe the science behind climate change or you don't.
China engaged in dumping of solar photovoltaics to under cut the US industry, one of the reasons for failure by some of our companies. Many of their industries are subsidized by the government but that was not the issue regarding solar. China is going in two directions, increased use of coal for the time being but also a leader in green energy.
We should not be going back in time and the EPA's concern should be environmental policy not energy needs, that's Rick Perry's job not Scott Pruitt. You either believe the science behind climate change or you don't.
If the government could figure out a way to tax the citizen for the air they breath, they would. So, you should know, I don't believe in the science ... people manipulate crap all the time and others just soak up it like it's gospel truths.
Dinosaurs use to roam in the Dakotas as the temps were tropical, climate changed; now its colder than a well diggers bottom and dinosaurs are extinct ... must have been the fault of the neanderthal, right?
Trump just trying to erase the visage of the Obama administration.
Clean air for Americans be damned !
He's got a man crush on Obama and he's trying to get over it.
Seriously something is wrong with him his hate for anything Obama is disturbing to say the least.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
