Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Then get on BATFE to suspend regulations regarding fitness of sale (things like suspicions that can lead to FFLS having licenses suspended or lengthy and expensive investigations if not acted on). FFLs are expected under current regs to be partial gatekeepers as well as retailers, get rid of the gatekeeper duty.
The way forward is clear, fill in a 4473 present ID, no self prohibition on form, NICS comes back clean then the FFL sells, no liability or responsibility once that check comes back 'proceed' and no BATFE involvement post sale. No concerns about anything other than what's presented on the 4473 either. No muss no fuss and zero liability.
Otherwise shut up, because it's a no win for FFLs, you can't expect them to responsibly evaluate customers, and demand they sell if basic procedures are met. Can't have it both ways.
Background checks are the standard way of checking someone's fitness to have a gun.
If the store owner was really racist, wouldn't he sell as many straw purchases to black men as possible since 90% of their victims are black? Please respond to this point in any response.
That's not even a right wing argument, it comes from the left. in my home state of IL and former city of Chicago they lay full blame for gun violence of "loose straw purchases" and weak laws, gun shows etc. outside the city.
So here we have a guy restricting gun purchases to a GROUP of black guys after previously selling to one individual in the group many times and now it's a video of racism?
Really can't win here because if you went in with 5 black guys and they all picked out guns but then only 1 had a valid license to purchase but then bought all 5.....if it were an expose show the store owner would be pilloried for making profits over the lives of young black people.
This whole argument is a catch 22.
Now if someone wants to send in 3 black guys to buy a 9mm and 3 white guys and the owner refuses to sell to the black guys then sure, but what we have here is a single incident which could actually cost the guy his business if those guns wind up in a high profile shooting but the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON must be racism and not the states attempts to put pressure on straw purchases?
This is really despicable. There isn't any reason why this guy shouldn't be allowed to purchase a firearm if his background is clean.
True story within the last week: I walked into a bar the other night with two REALLY drunk friends. They refused to serve them. (I was designated driver)
So, imagine if 5 minutes later I walked up to the bar and tried to buy 3 drinks.
Oh btw, one of the friends was black, the other mexican...I'm white.
Is it despicable?
Hate to say it but in may parts of the country due to historic racial oppression and resulting economic disparity the vast majority of gun violence is against blacks by blacks.
So turning a blind eye to straw purchases is suddenly not only OK but failure to do so is racism? After a decade or more of crucifying gun store owners for doing that?
Perhaps many of you don't live in areas with big straw=purchase issues but I have.
The irony that now the refusal to sell is racism is one of the most fudged up things I've read in a long time.
Seriously, group of young black guys walk in trying to funnel purchases through one guy?...sell to them? Racist. Don't sell to them? Racist.
Open to intelligent well thought discussion of the topic. Thanks.
P.S. IF you are new to the topic then check some links I posted in the post before or google. Straw purchases are a big deal and they've shut down businesses for not refusing transactions like the one being described in the thread.
Well, I do not see any evidence of a straw purchase attempt. All I see is the gun shop owner being distrustful of the person trying to buy a gun. If someone wanted to make a straw purchase, there are easier places to do this, such as:
1) The streets
2) Gun shows
If there is such concern about straw purchases, go to these guns and close the loophole.
In response to your further thought, this is something I see. Many persons who were as pro-gun as one could get, suddenly are like "the guy has the right to refuse to sell the gun to that man". I would think the pro-gun types would be on the side of the person trying to buy the gun. Instead, it's the other way around. Myself, I'm consistent. I'm pro-gun and I'm on the side of the person trying to buy the gun.
Hey I'm as pro gun as you get. However I know that FFLs are required to deny sales they suspect may be fraudulent or an immediate threat (the owner is not the buyer, the buyer is planning to commit immediate violence).
I'm not going to second guess his reasons and yes they may be entirely race based, but we don't know the full picture, has buyer been slowly increasing purchases? Has he just bought a large number in the past week? Did he hear of a recent arrest of that buyer (that may not yet be in the BGC), has the owner heard this guy is a known reseller?
So yes you can have non-refusal of purchase (assuming the BGC passes), but only if you remove the responsibilities FFLs are required to shoulder by law. Make gun buying more commodity, depend solely on NICS, and remove liability. But even then as an FFL a seller can refuse sale by stating NICS issued a 'Deny' how are you going to validate that (given NICS is not infallible and often issues false negatives). Even a FOIA request for your info in the NCIC and ICE db's doesn't prove the deny was issued. So that still will not prevent prejudice denying sales to people for any reason whatsoever.
Background checks are the standard way of checking someone's fitness to have a gun.
Yes I know I've been a part time licensed dealer for around 10 years. Issue is it's not the only thing you need to worry about, and if you don't worry about it you can wind up in the Federal Pen for 10-20. That's worst case best case is you get audited and spend 3-4 weeks going through your records with your local Hitler Youth, I mean BATFE agent.
Lets think... possible lawsuit or 10 years in jail...
I'm not going to second guess his reasons and yes they may be entirely race based, but we don't know the full picture, has buyer been slowly increasing purchases? Has he just bought a large number in the past week? Did he hear of a recent arrest of that buyer (that may not yet be in the BGC), has the owner heard this guy is a known reseller?
-the shop owner didn't give a reason. So how do YOU know what the reason was? Some of us are logically deducing that race is the reason. Because he said "I don't need a reason" then he changed it to straw purchase. He was just making stuff up in the moment. And even the straw purchase reason is him coming to some conclusion about a future crime taking place, based on him being black.
-he didn't even know that this customer was a repeat customer, he said no as soon as they walked in. How would he know of a recent arrest of that buyer?
-the shop owner didn't give a reason. So how do YOU know what the reason was? Some of us are logically deducing that race is the reason. Because he said "I don't need a reason" then he changed it to straw purchase. He was just making stuff up in the moment. And even the straw purchase reason is him coming to some conclusion about a future crime taking place, based on him being black.
-he didn't even know that this customer was a repeat customer, he said no as soon as they walked in. How would he know of a recent arrest of that buyer?
You don't know what the reason was either. You are just guessing.
If a black guy walks into a bar and shows no sign of being intoxicated and he was refused service that is illegal. That crap went out in the 60's but apparently racism and the justification of racism is alive and well in gun shops. Shocker.
The state gives the bar tender flexibility by allowing him to refuse service to anyone for any reason. At least in Pa. it does.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
