Following summit, France and Russia carry out 1st joint aid effort in Syria

[Kracer]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

This was originally agreed by Russian President Vladimir Putin and French leader Emmanuel Macron during talks in Saint Petersburg in May and has nothing to do with Trump.

At the same time as this is going on, behind the scenes Europe is developing new defence partnerships as a possible alternative to the US and NATO, and the EU is currently consulting on a list of tariffs, in response to Trump's proposed Tariiffs on EU cars.

Relations between Europe and the US are currently at an historic low point since the end of the Cold War.

what relations?


In what functional way is the bond between US and Europe at a low point?


Trump just sent armaments to several European countries who wanted them to intimidate any Russian aggression.


Maybe you mean between the US and Russia due to Trump's actions that counter Putin's strategy to expand and reclaim former communist territory.


When it comes to security, the US bond is strong. Euro investment in the US is at a high point.


Europe will never abandon nato because they could not afford to keep their socialist culture alive if they had to spend money on defense. Though it about time euro took responsibility for dust ups in their own neighborhood instead of relying on the US. The formation of the European union did nothing to grow their sense of responsibility for their part of the world. The euro people hated the thought of a united states of Europe.


Alternatively if the Euro countries believe Obama's claim that Russia and putin are not a threat, then why do they need to have spend a nickel on their self defense.

[Brave New World]

Originally Posted by moneill

Oh look -- somebody has been doing some reading and paying attention.

Thanks for supporting the facts.

The facts are that Trump hasn't done anything but upset allies, strain relation and cause an Atlantic gulf.

Europe has been developing new defence pacts outside NATO.

Nine EU states to launch joint military force as Paris pushes for post-Brexit crisis defence group - The Telegraph

UK and France commit to new defence cooperation - GOV.UK

Combined Joint Expeditionary Force - Wikipedia

UK Joint Expeditionary Force - Wikipedia

Britain and Germany set to sign defence agreements despite Brexit - Business Insider

PESCO: EU army one step closer after defense pact agreement - DW

Pesco: Remaining EU countries agree to plan to integrate their military forces after Brexit - The Independent

EU nations sign Pesco joint military plan (but not Britain) - Business Insider

[Brave New World]

Originally Posted by Kracer

what relations?

As in diplomatic and trading relations, common security and intelligence and a commitment to NATO and Article 5.

Originally Posted by Kracer

In what functional way is the bond between US and Europe at a low point?

I would call a potentiAL trade war involving hundreds of millions of dollars a low point. Although the average EU/US Tariff is only 3%.

I would call calling NATO obselete, threatening to withdraw from it and questioning mutual aid under Article 5 a low point, as indeed is calling European nations freeloaders.

Originally Posted by Kracer

Trump just sent armaments to several European countries who wanted them to intimidate any Russian aggression.

Trump has just made NATO far less credible by stating he wouldn't necessarily defend a NATO member. The whole credibility of NATO relies on Article 5, and it also should be noted that European NATO member also sent forces to the Baltic countries and Poland and also continue to have forces in Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by Kracer

Maybe you mean between the US and Russia due to Trump's actions that counter Putin's strategy to expand and reclaim former communist territory.

Trump has played in to Putin's hands, the US and Europe now have strained economic and trading conditions, a strained and increasingly worthless military alliance if Article 5 can be questioned and even intelligence sharing has become questionable due to Trump administration leaks and Trumps relationship and possible collusion with Russia.

Originally Posted by Kracer

When it comes to security, the US bond is strong. Euro investment in the US is at a high point.

A trade war, will soon put pay to investment and could cause a rather large global recession.

Originally Posted by Kracer

Europe will never abandon nato because they could not afford to keep their socialist culture alive if they had to spend money on defense. Though it about time euro took responsibility for dust ups in their own neighborhood instead of relying on the US. The formation of the European union did nothing to grow their sense of responsibility for their part of the world. The euro people hated the thought of a united states of Europe.

Trump and the US are the ones questioning NATO and article 5 and not the Europeans. As for defence pacts they can be independent of the EU, indeed Britain is still signing new pacts depite brexit.

Originally Posted by Kracer

Alternatively if the Euro countries believe Obama's claim that Russia and putin are not a threat, then why do they need to have spend a nickel on their self defense.

Obama has nothing to do with what is happening now, and is stance is irrelevant. What matters is Trump's comments on NATO and more especially Article 5.