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Old 08-06-2018, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Arizona
7,511 posts, read 4,383,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
Ask any English major, and they would tell you that the sentence has faulty syntax. If they had written:

"Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." that would have been grammatically correct.

I doubt that we're going to amend the Constitution just to correct the grammar. Even if we changed it to the above version, there would still be dispute over the purpose of the "well-regulated" term. Does militia mean a bunch of average citizens grabbing their guns to go fight the enemy, or does "well-regulated" imply that this applies only to a more official, organized force?

To be unambiguous, we could just have, as others have suggested, "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." However, if we were to rewrite the 2nd amendment, I would take that opportunity to make it clear that certain arms, such as nuclear weapons and biological weapons, may be outlawed, and that certain people, such as mentally ill or convicted violent criminals, may be prohibited from bearing arms.
They already are. Federal Form 4473 list all of the conditions to lawfully "keep and bear arms".
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:56 PM
 
52,430 posts, read 26,742,635 times
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It fascinates me that ever since Trump beat the pantsuit off Bill Clinton's wife and Democrats lost a historic chance to reshape the Supreme Court, at how much they now want to tear up the US Constitution.

The near future for them does not bode well for them at all.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:12 PM
 
Location: San Diego
18,747 posts, read 7,659,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
So you favor giving Government the ultimate power to decide who can own a gun and who can't?

And you trust that government to never abuse that power? Ever?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale View Post
You want criminals and the certified insane to have weapons?
As I expected, you don't want to answer the question. Because you DO want the government to have the power to decide who can own a gun and who can't, and you do trust them to not abuse that right. But you don't want to answer the question honestly, because you know you would be challenged on it and you cannot defend your opinion.

Your honesty is as suspect as your naivety is charming.

There is just as high a percentage of crazy people in George Washington's time as there are today. And yet, while the Framers wrote some of the Constitution and its amendments with explicit exceptions, they carefully omitted ANY such exceptions from the 2nd amendment. They clearly intended it to have none.

They knew that society would be safer even if the occasional crazy person had access to a gun, than if the Government had the power to infringe ANY of the people's right to own and carry them.

And that makes them a lot wiser than the leftist fanatics trying to give government that exact power today.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:22 PM
 
Location: San Diego
18,747 posts, read 7,659,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
Ask any English major, and they would tell you that the sentence has faulty syntax.
They would?


--------------------------------------------------------------

Reproduced in full with written permission from the author (see below):

J. Neil Schulman: The Unabridged Second Amendment

The Unabridged Second Amendment

by J.Neil Schulman

Author, Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns & Self Control Not Gun Control
Webmaster, The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock

The following is reprinted from the September 13, 1991 issue of Gun Week, and also appears under the title "The Text of The Second Amendment" in The Journal on Firearms and Public Policy, Summer 1992, Volume 4, Number 1.

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, Editorial Coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style: The Consensus.

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a distinguished seventeen-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publishers' Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter on July 26, 1991:

I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

The text of the Second Amendment is, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,"is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary.

My letter framed several questions about the text of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance.

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, ProfessorCopperud sent me the following analysis (into which I've inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

[Copperud:] The words "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitute a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying " militia," which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject "the right," verb "shall"). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as essential for maintaining a militia.

In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman: (1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to "a well-regulated militia"?;]

[Copperud:] (1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people.

[Schulman: (2) Is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right "shall not be infringed"?;]

[Copperud:] (2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

[Schulman: (3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well-regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?;]

[Copperud:](3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

[Schulman: (4) Does the clause "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," grant a right to the government to place conditions on the "right of the people to keep and bear arms," or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?;]

[Copperud:] (4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia.

[Schulman: (5) Which of the following does the phrase "well-regulated militia" mean: "well-equipped," "well-organized," "well-drilled," "well-educated," or "subject to regulations of a superior authority"?]

[Copperud:] (5) The phrase means "subject to regulations of a superior authority"; this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.

[Schulman: If at all possible, I would ask you to take into account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written two-hundred years ago, but not to take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated.]

[Copperud:] To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged."

[Schulman:] As a "scientific control" on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence, and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and
(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict "the right of the people to keep and read Books" only to "a well-educated electorate"- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?]

[Copperud:] (1) Your "scientific control" sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.
(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation.
ProfessorCopperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."


So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all government formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.


(C) 1991 by TheNew Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited. All other rights reserved.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:58 PM
 
Location: San Diego
18,747 posts, read 7,659,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker View Post
They already are. Federal Form 4473 list all of the conditions to lawfully "keep and bear arms".
No, it lists the conditions under which the government will deliberately and unconstitutionally violate your right to keep and bear arms.

And not all of them.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:29 PM
 
45,304 posts, read 26,570,887 times
Reputation: 25056
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
that my friend would be a very foolish thing to do as the government could then ban all guns from private citizens hands.
Which it has no more right to do than granting permission in the first place. Freedom doesnt require an amendment or law because some bureaucrat, politician, judge or president will just interpret it as they see fit. For evidence see how the second is already maligned. There is no perfect wording because those who will enforce it upon us will lie about meaning of the words.
"shall not infringe"is pretty clear, yet we have a sitting prez who has just done exactly that.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Rural Wisconsin
19,946 posts, read 9,504,933 times
Reputation: 38631
If it were up to me, I would remove the Second Amendment altogether and leave it up to the individual states (or towns) as to what what kind of weapons their residents are permitted to have and what restrictions apply.

To clarify my position, I have no problem with handgun or rifle ownership, but I do have a problem with most people being able to buy a weapon capable of murdering a hundred people or other large mammals in less than a minute and that has no other purpose. (For example, I know that dynamite can kill a great number of people, but it has other purposes, also.)

Last edited by katharsis; 08-06-2018 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,431,714 times
Reputation: 14459
First I'd ask to see where I signed the thing.

That should take awhile.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:46 PM
 
45,304 posts, read 26,570,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
First I'd ask to see where I signed the thing.

That should take awhile.
It was when you popped out of...well nevermind
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:50 PM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,185,494 times
Reputation: 17866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvette Ministries View Post
Many, if not most Americans feel that the current text of the Second Amendment to the US Constitution is worded just fine, Thank You Very Much.

But not all agree.

If YOU feel that the text is lacking in any way,
how would you reword it to fit more in the context of the 21st century and beyond, if given the chance?

For reference, here's what it said when it was ratified in 1791:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I'd use the same text in the Pennsylvania Constitution that predates the US Constitution.

1776 Version:

Quote:
That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power.
This was split in 1790 and currently reads:


Quote:
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
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