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You're entirely right that in this regard there was division not unity. Unity is rare in a democracy. And you can't get it just by saying "Agree with me. Stop protesting!" There is unity in the sense that virtually everyone supports and is concerned for the victims' families. The division comes with regard to how to exercise that support. It's better to embrace division as a healthy part of Democracy than try to artificially impose unity. There are plenty of unified places that I would not want the US to be like. Unity is not inherently good or bad. It just means everyone is thinking and acting the same.
I agree with everything you state here. I never would say, "stop protesting". I just think they could have gave it a rest for just one day and welcomed everyone to pay respects to such a tragedy. The far left didn't allow that and disregarded the wishes of the rabbi himself. I think that is what I feel is wrong with this country. Division is going to happen, but at least allow for some common ground. It also is odd the far left just doesn't hear Trump on this matter. Here are some quotes from Trump regarding this horrible shooting.
...the alleged perpetrator should "pay the highest price" for what he called "an assault on humanity."
"This was an anti-Semitic attack at its worst," Trump said. "The scourge of anti-Semitism cannot be ignored, cannot be tolerated, and it cannot be allowed to continue … It must be confronted and condemned everywhere it rears its very ugly head."
This could have been a time for love and healing for ALL, not just the far left. I guess I just don't get how the far left and right can ignore so much and just continue their hateful ways with no common ground even in times like this. Oh well, it is hard to be a moderate listening to hate every day from both sides. If a mass shooting like this doesn't bring people together, I honestly have very little hope at all. Guess I was hoping for something that will just not be allowed to happen. Frustrating, but I have to come to terms with it. Give up hope is just going to have to happen on my end.
My apologies for venting on here. I am just very upset about what happened and very upset in how people are acting. I know people think they are doing the right thing because they are constantly surrounded into their echo-chambers and always have a feeling of confirmation from their little groups. People just can't seem to see both sides and hate has won this battle. Maybe years and years from now it will be different, but not now. That is quite obvious. Have the best day you can.
tered Democrat and voted for Bernie and Hillary. I am not a right wing individual and have always considered myself left of center. Not sure where I stand now however. Not a fan of either side really as all they do is spew hatred towards each other. Someday I hope it stops, but the day of mourning here in Pittsburgh won't be that day. They couldn't just let Rabbi Myers have one day. Not one!
I, too, consider myself left-of-center and am actually a registered Independent. However, ironically, your point of "unity" is undermined by demonizing people's right to protest, no? "Unity" doesn't mean full agreement about sentiments or ways to respond. We all have a right to express our opinions however we wish, so long as it's done peacefully.
As another poster has said, disagreement is an inevitability (and frankly, a necessity) in democracy. And the assertion that protesting is intentionally divisive is patently false. Shaming people for exercising their right to demonstrate, in what is a fundamentally non-partisan issue of a lack of true leadership and immoral character, is damaging to our democracy.
Whether or not you personally agree, the fact of the matter is that many people believe that there is a direct connection between the rhetoric of our current President and the atrocity that happened this past weekend. There's no more appropriate response than protesting to register your opposition to such rhetoric and demand a denouncement of antisemitism and those who subscribe to it (or any other extremist ideologies).
On another note, I also agree with you that the far left (and the far right) are dangerous agents in our democracy. However, I'm very wary of folks ascribing all protesters as "far leftists" and "further inciting hate," as that's a very common tactic historically used to discourage dissent by framing mainstream views as being on the "fringe."
No, it absolutely does not mean that one is "inherently opposed to our justice system."
It merely means that one is calling out someone who announced his intent to assassinate other Americans and then pleads not guilty is ridiculous on a real level. It's a separate context than the legal aspect of this.
Try to keep up.
Next.
Basically, you don’t want him to have the option to enter a not guilty plea because you’re certain he’s guilty. The problem is that the purpose of the trial is to ascertain degree of certainty of guilt. It is dangerous to try to ascertain guilt before the trial.
I am “keeping up” with your argument. I just don’t want a country where guilt is determined before trial.
Yes, but we are not a court of law. We are not bound by it when saying "he announced his intent and did it."
Really, this is not a hard concept to grasp.
It is indeed not hard. You have every legal right to make a list of people who you think shouldn't enter not guilty pleas - or who you think it's appalling when they do. I'm merely saying that is a dangerous mindset and I'd rather be in a country where everyone went to painstaking efforts to assume someone on trial was not guilty until the trial.
Basically, you don’t want him to have the option to enter a not guilty plea because you’re certain he’s guilty. The problem is that the purpose of the trial is to ascertain degree of certainty of guilt. It is dangerous to try to ascertain guilt before the trial.
I am “keeping up” with your argument. I just don’t want a country where guilt is determined before trial.
Just like the Kavanaugh hearings. I'm glad that some people are beginning to get a clear picture of what's at stake for our CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. We are NOT a DEMOCRACY or mob rule.
When you have time watch the video of the rabbi that just had his synagogue shot up. Until then, I really don't know what to say to someone that really isn't interested. I feel I am wasting my time writing this, but will continue for anyone else that would like to read. You are bending words to try and pretend what the rabbi stated is meaningless. I assure you, his words are not meaningless. Here are my feelings as I reflect on all of this.
Again:
1. Rabbi Myers openly welcomed the visit from "his president".
2. Rabbi Myers met with the president personally and showed him around and guided him with care as would be expected.
3. Rabbi Myers received emails after he said he welcomed the president to persuade him to not come, but the Rabbi stated that would just be "more hate".
***The protests were clearly self-serving and not helping the larger picture of the healing process. They were filled with hate/divide and that is exactly what the rabbi didn't want.
So what did the protesting do?
1. Divided the country more? Check
2. Promoted hatred towards the president that was welcomed to the synagogue? Check
3. Used the mass killing as a platform for their own agenda? Check
4. Inhibited the possibility that this tragedy could possibly pull people of all walks of life together as the rabbi would clearly want? Check
5. And this might be the most important one: The media is focused on Trump and the protesters and NOT focused on the messages from the Rabbi. Obviously Trump must visit our city. Every president would without hesitation, so that is GOING to happen. No blame can go towards Trump for his welcomed visit. The blame lies solely on the protestors that made this about themselves and not bothering to listen to the rabbi. Rabbi Myers words are completely lost due to the focus on protesting.
The list could go on and on. The self-serving protesters act as though they are in "solidarity". Solidarity in what? Their echo-chamber? This was an opportunity for all to come together and mourn and have common ground, but they made it all about themselves. I find that selfish and short-sided, not to mention against the rabbi's wishes.
On a personal note, I am a registered Democrat and voted for Bernie and Hillary. I am not a right wing individual and have always considered myself left of center. Not sure where I stand now however. Not a fan of either side really as all they do is spew hatred towards each other. Someday I hope it stops, but the day of mourning here in Pittsburgh won't be that day. They couldn't just let Rabbi Myers have one day. Not one!
I said no such thing! Rabbi Myers did not INVITE Trump. AFAIK, Trump decided on his own to come, seeing a great opportunity to campaign as well, and Myers said he was welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pullenaway
Here you go.
The burden of proof could just as easily be on you to prove he wasn't invited or asked...not sure how you came about that idea that he wasn't. Where do you get your information?
Wherever you get your news from, it's definitely failing you. You're being kept in the dark, and it sure does seem like it's being done intentionally.
That's just more "Trump is welcome to come", not "I invite Trump to come".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker
Indeed he did! It's no wonder you're not going to spend 20 minutes of your precious life watching those video's. You're afraid to face the truth.
No, Rabbi Myers did NOT invite Trump, and your quote does not show that he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erieguy
I’m not defending anyone. The fact is the man was invited to help mourn the victims which is indeed what this is about.
No he wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg
Here, I will post it again, so you don't have to bother reading this whole thread. He states it twice and he also states that he was encouraged by some emails to not welcome Trump, but he said that would just be more hate. So much can be learned from him, but he message falls on deaf ears for the most part because our city is so filled with hate and self-serving people.
Your response to me when I asked who invited Trump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erieguy
Not everyone was unwilling. He was invited and welcomed by many.
He was NOT invited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg
corpgypsy stated:
Pittsburgh asked Mr.Trump not to come because we were only starting to bury our dead, that morning.
"Pittsburgh" did not ask Trump not to come. A small group did. He was welcome by MANY as seen in the hospital and by the rabbi himself.
Pittsburgh officials, Jewish leaders in Pittsburgh, families of victims, top members of his own party and Pittsburgh citizens needed to shun Trump, and deservedly did so.
Again, the head of the synagogue Rabbi Myers clearly stated that he welcomes a visit from his president and he showed that welcome personally as Trump lite candles and was educated by Rabbi Myers about the horrific shooting. Trump had to pay his respects just like so many wanted to.
Saturday’s tragic events called for love and unity...
There was NO unity. That is the part the far left seems to not get. If there was "unity" they would want ALL to partake and ALL were not invited. Republicans were kept at bay because of the protests. That is not unity, that is division. I don't understand why people can't see that? This was turned into a political circus. If the rabbi can see it clearly, why can't others? Do people just glaze over when the rabbi states he received emails after welcoming his president urging him to uninvited him and Rabbi Myers states, "that would just be more hate".? How hard is this to understand?
The President’s visit, much like his ideas, was unwelcome in our city.
He was "unwelcome" by a group of people, not the rabbi that was holding the ceremony. Look at the videos of him in the hospital. They were very grateful for his visit as were many. Trump had to come and pay his respects. It was the right thing to do regardless of what the far left thinks.
The mayor asked Trump not to come. He represents "Pittsburgh".
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-01-2018 at 11:47 AM..
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