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I think it's pretty naive to say one is not a feminist if they are a woman. Easy to say that when one didn't do the work and suffering that it took to get you here.
Maybe you don't like to be able to buy a house, sign a lease, vote, apply for a job and get it over a man less qualified, even if the man had a family (I've had that one applied to me at least once), easy to say you're not a feminist if you never have contemplated divorce, its really only possible if you can fend for yourself. Easy to say you're not a feminist if you don't enjoy walking into an establishment to order a drink or wherever pesky women were made to feel unwelcome. Easy to say you're a not a feminist if you don't care to make choices or decisions for yourself. Easy. In fact if one is a woman and not a feminist, I guess they are a potato, or sub-standard in the human being area, and appreciate not having to think.
So...that leaves which women? Which women are not taking part and benefiting from those who got tired of being second class or property and had to actually DO something about it?
I used to think of myself as more...traditional, and didn't really think of myself as a feminist. Then one day, I was having an online discussion in a forum I used to belong to, and the discussion turned to some of the whacky assumptions some men make about women, and a friend of mine said something about "I know my friend Sassy, and all my girl friends are feminists..."
And I got to thinking about it. If being a feminist means I want my right to vote, if being feminist means I can wear what I want to wear, and go out in public when I feel like going out in public, without a male escort, if being feminist means I can purchase a car, a house, have a credit card, not have to ask permission to have an opinion, if being feminist means I can hold a job and expect fair pay...than yeah, I guess I'm a feminist.
If your in a relationship, you have to do things that you may not want to do, and sometimes you have to do what your spouse tells you. That doesn't mean they can order you around like a servant, but if you're going to bristle at everything on the principle of "no one tells me what to do," you are really going to struggle in relationships.
As my wife rightfully asked me, "Don't Get drunk at the football game, we have dinner with my Grandmother tonight." Or, in my case with my ex, "Don't order another drink," (because I need to get home and get to bed, and I'm not having your ass buzz in at 3:00 AM and falling asleep to the TV on loud.)
Some places have dress codes, or a general expectation of a certain level of dress. My wife told me yesterday "You need to wear a Blazer tonight." It was a fundraiser for a foundation she sits on the board for. I didn't bristle at being told what to do. I respected the fact that I wasn't going to a Bowling Alley. If I showed up in dirty Jeans and a T-shirt dressed like I had taken the dogs for a hike it would have been an insult to her and the work that she does with them. And she certainly didn't take it the wrong way when I told her that jeans weren't appropriate for Christmas Mass and my family's Christmas party.
LOL!
No wonder I opted, in my second major relationship (heading toward being my second marriage) to find an adult who already knows how to be an adult and does not need a spouse to "tell him what to do" ever. Nor do I. Neither of us has any business trying to control the other's behavior. We dress how we like, neither of us drinks or is irresponsible. Neither of us tells the other how to spend money or time.
Believe it or not, that's what a lot of people, at least women, want. We don't want a man who feels he's got to act like a parent to a teenager, all, "You need to let me know where you are every minute of the day and report who you talk to and answer to me" and we also don't want a childish man who has to be told when to get off his computer game and come spend time with the family, or that he probably should not eat or drink or wear something. Being an actual adult person, partnered with another actual adult person, is awesome.
When it comes to boundaries and comfort levels, we discuss and negotiate and come to agreements. We do not issue ultimatums or orders.
I agree. "Feminist," IMO, is not just one thing, but ranges from merely taking for granted the advantages Ruth lists in her first paragraph (won, incidentally, by the hard efforts of feminists) all the way to the other end of the spectrum, exemplified by (for example) Valerie Solanas' SCUM Manifesto (the Society for Cutting Up Men). [ See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas ]
It seems like most correspondents on this thread don't acknowledge the very wide spectrum (or "waves") of feminism.
Unfortunately, and as usual, the extreme dominates the media such that the Feminism we see in media has revoked even Germaine Greer's "feminist card" because she isn't extreme enough...and she was hard-core, out-in-the-streets feminist before most of them were born.
If your in a relationship, you have to do things that you may not want to do, and sometimes you have to do what your spouse tells you. That doesn't mean they can order you around like a servant, but if you're going to bristle at everything on the principle of "no one tells me what to do," you are really going to struggle in relationships.
As my wife rightfully asked me, "Don't Get drunk at the football game, we have dinner with my Grandmother tonight." Or, in my case with my ex, "Don't order another drink," (because I need to get home and get to bed, and I'm not having your ass buzz in at 3:00 AM and falling asleep to the TV on loud.)
Some places have dress codes, or a general expectation of a certain level of dress. My wife told me yesterday "You need to wear a Blazer tonight." It was a fundraiser for a foundation she sits on the board for. I didn't bristle at being told what to do. I respected the fact that I wasn't going to a Bowling Alley. If I showed up in dirty Jeans and a T-shirt dressed like I had taken the dogs for a hike it would have been an insult to her and the work that she does with them. And she certainly didn't take it the wrong way when I told her that jeans weren't appropriate for Christmas Mass and my family's Christmas party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
LOL!
No wonder I opted, in my second major relationship (heading toward being my second marriage) to find an adult who already knows how to be an adult and does not need a spouse to "tell him what to do" ever. Nor do I. Neither of us has any business trying to control the other's behavior. We dress how we like, neither of us drinks or is irresponsible. Neither of us tells the other how to spend money or time.
Believe it or not, that's what a lot of people, at least women, want. We don't want a man who feels he's got to act like a parent to a teenager, all, "You need to let me know where you are every minute of the day and report who you talk to and answer to me" and we also don't want a childish man who has to be told when to get off his computer game and come spend time with the family, or that he probably should not eat or drink or wear something. Being an actual adult person, partnered with another actual adult person, is awesome.
When it comes to boundaries and comfort levels, we discuss and negotiate and come to agreements. We do not issue ultimatums or orders.
I think that partners need to be secure enough that they can seek the advice of the other as well as feel free to advise the other - and then choose to either take or not take that advice. In the above situation, I'd hope that my partner wouldn't choose to go ahead and wear raggedy jeans to church or I'd feel the need to leave them at home or go separately!
True partners know that when the other partner is more invested in something than they are that they can step back and "acquiesce" with the understanding that they will also reap the benefit of the same in the future. It's not having to be right all the time and controlling stuff all the time even when you don't give a rat's *** but you have to control for the sake of it.
But this is common sense / every day feminism at work - equal partners with equal decision making. It is obviously more complicated if one person is less mature, knowledgeable, or confident. Perhaps it is the acknowledgement that the other person at least has the POTENTIAL to be equal / equivalent in all ways even if they are still "on the path".
It seems like most correspondents on this thread don't acknowledge the very wide spectrum (or "waves") of feminism.
Unfortunately, and as usual, the extreme dominates the media such that the Feminism we see in media has revoked even Germaine Greer's "feminist card" because she isn't extreme enough...and she was hard-core, out-in-the-streets feminist before most of them were born.
As with any group there are branches and differing interests they focus on but at the very core feminist means “the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.” We can discuss each wave and branch of interest including the extremes but in the end it still boils down to the core principle. I wouldn’t assume others on here are not aware of or don’t understand the wide spectrum
As with any group there are branches and differing interests they focus on but at the very core feminist means “the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.” We can discuss each wave and branch of interest including the extremes but in the end it still boils down to the core principle. I wouldn’t assume others on here are not aware of or don’t understand the wide spectrum
Does that core principle extend validly beyond the second wave of feminism, however?
I think that an idea that I connect to some of the issues that some take with concepts like feminism, is the idea of scarcity versus abundance.
So I am all for every person having a fair shot at their pursuit of happiness. I don't think that one person having it, takes away from another person's ability to have it (if we're being ethical.) If your pursuit of happiness requires the subjugation of another human being's right to pursue theirs, then you're not being an ethically good person. I think that there is plenty of opportunity to go around. We, at least in your typical developed country, live in abundance. Not scarcity.
No one should expect to be handed easily, things that others must struggle to get. Or if they are, they should have some gratitude for their lot in life, and not be angry because a struggling person is trying to achieve what they received more easily.
Probably my most prickly sore spot when it comes to male/female relations, is the sheer number of men I have encountered who believe that their pursuit of love and sex makes it impossible to see women as PEOPLE. Is it because they believe deep down, that a man having sex with a woman is doing a negative thing TO her or taking something FROM her? And if they saw her as really a person on par with themselves, they'd have ethical dilemmas about wanting her for sex? I don't know. But there's a lot of mentality that is not conducive to healthy interactions and anyone ending up with a shot at real happiness. I am not ever going to be one to dismiss the feelings of men or chuckle about entitled male tears, like I have heard some "feminists" do. The most toxic man I know, who carries seriously nasty baggage about women, well he makes himself more miserable than he makes anyone else. If I had the power to heal his hurt I'd do it, if only so that HE could find happiness. That's the thing though, it's not a matter to me of standing on the side of women arguing with men because their mentalities are harmful to women. I also care that often, those ideas are also harmful to the man carrying them. In fact he is more likely to kill himself than a woman is. That, to me, is worth caring about.
The stuff I think about, well, it's just...it's bigger, to me, than feminism. It is a huge heap of concern for human beings and the human condition. And I also believe that our heads of state and industry, the most powerful people who kinda run it all, really want people in general to be divided among ourselves and so busy taking stands against each other, that we spare no thought to what they are up to. So long as we're fussing about the war between the sexes, and racial divides, and transgender bathrooms, and anything where we're against each other, neighbor distrusting neighbor and all, the ones at the top have nothing to fear and can do whatever they want. If we ever learned to generally respect each other and turn united to face them, they'd be in big, big trouble.
No wonder I opted, in my second major relationship (heading toward being my second marriage) to find an adult who already knows how to be an adult and does not need a spouse to "tell him what to do" ever. Nor do I. Neither of us has any business trying to control the other's behavior. We dress how we like, neither of us drinks or is irresponsible. Neither of us tells the other how to spend money or time.
Believe it or not, that's what a lot of people, at least women, want. We don't want a man who feels he's got to act like a parent to a teenager, all, "You need to let me know where you are every minute of the day and report who you talk to and answer to me" and we also don't want a childish man who has to be told when to get off his computer game and come spend time with the family, or that he probably should not eat or drink or wear something. Being an actual adult person, partnered with another actual adult person, is awesome.
When it comes to boundaries and comfort levels, we discuss and negotiate and come to agreements. We do not issue ultimatums or orders.
Maybe "order" is the wrong term. Without further guidance from my wife, I would have put on nice jeans and nice shoes and a decent shirt, and I wouldn't have stood out like a sore thumb but I would have stood out nonetheless.
I really don't think its sexist or wrong or whatever to say that you and your partner do represent each other.
Maybe "order" is the wrong term. Without further guidance from my wife, I would have put on nice jeans and nice shoes and a decent shirt, and I wouldn't have stood out like a sore thumb but I would have stood out nonetheless.
I really don't think its sexist or wrong or whatever to say that you and your partner do represent each other.
I think the respectful version of this is valuing each other's opinion, giving each other advisement, but respecting that the final decision is your partner's about what they will do.
My boyfriend likes polo shirts. I hate them. I have not told him that I hate them. I have no rational reason for it, and it isn't my place to tell him not to wear something because I just don't like it. But I do compliment him when he wears other shirts--if I think he looks good, I make sure he knows it. And over time, the positive reinforcement does have an effect. He doesn't wear the polo shirts as often, he wears the shirts I have given him or complimented him on.
Similarly I know he likes when I dress it up a little or be a bit more feminine. Wear a skirt or something. I don't do that all the time, but some days if we will be spending a lot of time together I do, just because I know he likes it.
If he's not sure about the proper dress for an event, he will ask me for my opinion. Like, "I was thinking I would wear my slacks, do you think I should wear the dress shoes, or would black sneakers be good enough?"
But not in a million years would he presume to tell me not to go out wearing something sexy where other men might see. My ex used to do that. That does not fly. Whole other can o' worms, that one.
Frankly, I've never been very comfortable with debates about feminism because everyone defines it their own way, so the discussion invariably goes around in circles and ultimately down the drain. I'd rather debate specific issues, like "Are women and men shuffled into jobs that inadvertently or purposely increase inequality?" I think that's a much more productive conversation.
Last edited by randomparent; 11-02-2018 at 12:49 PM..
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