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Does anyone else think that sometimes people can be categorized into two types, either feminist or traditional?
I think that society has slowly been going into a more feminist trend throughout history. There have been peaks and valleys, but I think that is the general trend. I've always thought that it was healthy and good whenever a woman wanted to become a career professional, and even become a manager type. I've never liked women who wanted to act subservient, especially to men.
More traditional women might be successful in the professional world, but they might tend to be the kind who had sexual affairs in an attempt to become successful.
Feminist women are definitely NOT men hating. But they may not like men who are more traditional or what we might think of as the "cowboy" type.
I think that sometimes even some lesbians might have a lot of respect for feminist men. Or they may have a negative view of traditional men. And they might fit more into the feminist category, if that makes sense.
Anyway, I don't know if any of what I said has made sense, but I'm curious if anyone else has ever thought about this, and how people can fall more into one of these two categories.
I think there are very few women who are either/or. I think you can be traditional AND a feminist. I don't think even the most old fashioned woman believes women should be denied equal pay for equal work, or should be discriminated against.
Eh....you forgot an apparently large portion of women who proudly are expressly NOT feminists - they never needed it, never wanted it and don't seem to like anyone who thinks there is such a need. That doesn't necessarily mean they are "traditional" but they are anti-feminist. Not sure there is a parallel category for men....
That term doesn't even make sense to me. It's like saying "Anti-civil rights". What does anti-feminist mean, you think women should be denied certain fields, or equal pay, or birth control?
I've always dated "cowboy" type men - one literally was a cowboy, come to think of it. They've admired the fact that I made more than them and had my own career, and I liked that they could do things like fix my car and put together Ikea furniture with minimal blood loss or bruising. It's a spectrum, not a binary either/or scenario for women.
I spend my days mostly wearing jeans, sneakers and t-shirts since I work from home. I'm usually covered with muddy pawprints or smell vaguely of the pups. I always joke with my friends that it's good I have noticeable boobs because most people might think I'm jsut a dude with long hair. But as some have noted, I clean up pretty good.
Thank you! The implication that women with old-fashioned values would be inclined to use sex to get jobs or promotions is outrageous! It sounds like you've been reading Helen Gurley-Brown, who advocated that. But the reason she did, is that she grew up in a world where women had NO options but office work, and NO clout at all, so she felt it was fair to use sex, which is pathetic. Oh, and did I mention, that she was from a dirt-poor, half-starved family? She grew up in very challenging circumstances. And her books were extremely controversial. She seemed to enjoy the sensationalism of it.
Most "traditional" women don't sell it, OP. Many can't even conceive of that.
That term doesn't even make sense to me. It's like saying "Anti-civil rights". What does anti-feminist mean, you think women should be denied certain fields, or equal pay, or birth control?
Some women don't like the label, and that's somewhat understandable. Feminism never did a great job of branding itself, and people who oppose feminism do an excellent job of branding it negatively. IThat's an observation, and not agreement with the negative branding.
I find it easier to talk in terms of the trend over time of women getting more social autonomy and choice, and in some cases responsibility. Likewise, more economic opportunity, political participation, and generally something approaching full rights and citizenship, and the efforts that went into that advance. If people have an objection to women being full citizens and the social equal of men, and some do, they have to lay it out when those things are detailed as I did above, as opposed to being able to just say feminism is a buzz kill. Many people will lay out their argument, but it ends up sounding pretty Ron Burgundy in the details.
I'd suggest that any person can have some specific beliefs that fit pigeonholes and others that don't. You cannot assume just because a person believes one thing they believe another. That is lazy and careless thinking. People tend to be harder than that. An example:
My Dad was politically conservative about fiscal policy but sometimes surprisingly progressive about social matters. He always identified as a Republican but disagreed with the party's stand on abortion or separation between church and state. Not because he was a "feminist", but because he believed that no government had the right to dictate what someone could do with their own person or what it should use as a moral compass. So, what was he? He was an individual, not a cut-and-dried category with some label stuck on it.
This is how I feel about it. I've run into the anti-feminist women only very rarely, mostly on the internet (incl. here on C-D). They DO expect equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for job advancement, protection from sexual harassment on the job, and to be taken seriously in life in general. Yet they insist they're not feminists, which is completely illogical. Whether they agree or not, others will view them as feminists.
And they never explain what "feminist" means to them, that they feel compelled to reject the label. They must be projecting some kind of baggage, obviously some kind of negative stereotype, onto the label, but that's on them, for erroneously equating feminism with whatever. All it means, is people who feel they should have the right to vote, the right to work on an equal footing with men with similar qualifications, the right to have a bank account and credit card, etc.
Hi, Ruth! Hope you're doing well. I'm one of the ladies you describe in this post. *cheerfully waves*
But it is a strategic choice and it's based on some important things.
While most feminists today are sensible people who simply want equal rights, equal pay, and other things I totally stand for, there have been some really wacky people who have worn the label loudly. Like that loon who shot Andy Warhol. She wrote a book, I think? If I remember right? I read a book by some woman who had this whole manifesto on why society does not need men...it was ages ago. Anyhow, despite the fact that the tremendous majority of feminists are sane people with reasonable goals, the existence of the crazy ones has given some people ("traditionalists" and others) plenty of ammo, plenty of juice to discredit and tear apart anyone who claims themselves a feminist. The word, and a lot of the buzz language, has different meaning to different audiences. And is now also associated with the effeminate, hyper-sensitive, perpetually offended stereotype of the "woke" people.
Frankly I just want to be a compassionate individual who, rather than engaging in groupthink or "identity politics" so much, sees each human being as a free, autonomous soul with their own struggles and valid space in society. I'm really not in solidarity with all woman either. Some of them are jerks. And some of men's issues that I hear about are totally valid and worthy of concern. As a mother of sons, I do have a vested interest, not that I need it because I care about PEOPLE.
I reject the labels while embracing some of the concepts, and I do it for reasons.
It's not the only category. There is also male and female. Right wing and left wing. Etc.
Thinking people are only either (1) left wing or (2) right wing is a mental-process limiting thought block. Very prevalent in this country, but just not the actual case.
Your absolute statement that feminist are not men-hating is also blatantly false. There are men-hating feminists. A small minority of feminists its true, but they do exist and don't even particular hide that fact.
I'd suggest that any person can have some specific beliefs that fit pigeonholes and others that don't. You cannot assume just because a person believes one thing they believe another. That is lazy and careless thinking. People tend to be harder than that. An example:
My Dad was politically conservative about fiscal policy but sometimes surprisingly progressive about social matters. He always identified as a Republican but disagreed with the party's stand on abortion or separation between church and state. Not because he was a "feminist", but because he believed that no government had the right to dictate what someone could do with their own person or what it should use as a moral compass. So, what was he? He was an individual, not a cut-and-dried category with some label stuck on it.
My .02, that women who outwardly and vocally reject being feminist are typically objecting to a lack of femininity that they (almost always incorrectly) perceive to be part and parcel of feminism. Like, they can't be a feminist and want to raise a family, enjoy nice clothes and painting their nails. Which is BS.
I know plenty of women that I work with that, if you asked them, would likely affirm feminism, but they are normal, successful people.
Conversely, those that wear it like tattoo are almost invariably using it as an excuse for personal emotional issues or to cover/justify something. I had a girlfriend like that. She'd screech feminism if I told her to do something she didn't want to do, no matter how sensible or right I was. Like, "you don't need another drink," or "You need to wear nice clothes (no jeans) to XYZ function." She bristled at a man "telling her what to wear" even though it was what she regularly wore at work.
It isn't unlike Christianity in some regards and how some identify with it.
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