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Old 11-01-2018, 07:11 AM
 
Location: San Diego
50,327 posts, read 47,088,247 times
Reputation: 34089

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HS is now a leftist political culture that attempts to shape how our young people think outside of basic education like math or science. How did this happen?
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:15 AM
 
13,966 posts, read 5,634,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewjdeg View Post
No it's not. New research on brain development in children makes it pretty clear that universal pre-k could be one of the most important investments the US gov ever makes.
Extensive research done over decades shows that by 3rd grade, any benefit from attending pre-K has been statistically eliminated. Pre-K, therefore, is a costly boondoggle to possibly help some percentage of children "ace" kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade?
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:19 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,663,022 times
Reputation: 18521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Public education had a huge effect on raising up the middle class from about 1900 until the 60s. The middle class heyday in the midcentury corresponded with the heyday of public education. Go figure.

The reasons for the decline of public education are legion and I don't want to rehash that debate. I'm more concerned with why we rarely hear about this decline as a driver of inequality. Wage stagnation is blamed on outsourcing, union busting, technology, etc. Underlying wage stagnation is productivity stagnation. And productivity stagnates when people stop becoming more educated.

Is it possible that the middle class is disappearing because the middle class is losing skills due to the decline of public education? I think it's very possible.
Equal Opportunity
v.
Equal Outcome


Pick one, as there can never be both.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,259 posts, read 64,397,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Extensive research done over decades shows that by 3rd grade, any benefit from attending pre-K has been statistically eliminated. Pre-K, therefore, is a costly boondoggle to possibly help some percentage of children "ace" kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade?
Yes.
And extensive research keeps putting kid success in the laps of the parents.

They even did a full school swap in England (rich and poor) and saw the same thing we keep seeing over and over.

I'm not saying this to blame parents, but it's hard to create a cohesive public policy change when you can't control the biggest piece.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:26 AM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,956,917 times
Reputation: 18156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Extensive research done over decades shows that by 3rd grade, any benefit from attending pre-K has been statistically eliminated. Pre-K, therefore, is a costly boondoggle to possibly help some percentage of children "ace" kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade?
The objective of elementary schools is to dumb down the smart kids and bring up the dumb kids to a below-average median that is easier to manage as the kids age up. This is usually accomplished by grade 4.

It's very successful at bare bones mediocracy. Any parent who has multiple kids in the government school system knows this.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:34 AM
 
13,966 posts, read 5,634,219 times
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@stan4 and @newtovenice - I agree folks. Education has become the number 1 area of life where people succeed/flourish IN SPITE of government, and never because of them.

If a smart kid gets encouraged and stimulated to achieve great academic things, you can bet dimes to donuts that that kid's parents did everything in their power to avoid government run education. Simply choosing ANY education alternative to a public school is a virtual guarantee of future academic success.

And ignorant statists like Drewjdeg want to take the pit of sub-mediocrity that is government run education and make it deeper and wider by getting the kids 1-2 years earlier than they get them now. By kindergarten, a smart kid's parents may have gotten them to 1st-2nd grade levels in various subjects, setting them on a privileged path. But if we can just get that 3 year old into one of the government run dumbing down factories, we can stop that privilege in its tracks before that kid tragically turns into a success.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:44 AM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,258,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Yes.
And extensive research keeps putting kid success in the laps of the parents.

They even did a full school swap in England (rich and poor) and saw the same thing we keep seeing over and over.

I'm not saying this to blame parents, but it's hard to create a cohesive public policy change when you can't control the biggest piece.
I agree parents are the biggest piece of the puzzle.

What I'm getting at in my OP is that maybe the middle class is responsible for its own immiseration?
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:51 AM
 
Location: The 719
18,028 posts, read 27,479,203 times
Reputation: 17355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewjdeg View Post
No it's not. New research on brain development in children makes it pretty clear that universal pre-k could be one of the most important investments the US gov ever makes.
I think bad parenting is to blame.

How much time does soccer mom or football dad spend taking their kids to a museum or a library or sending them to an academic camp?

We're as stupid as our cell phones are. Garbage in, garbage out. How well is the infrastructure running in your own community? Are there unfilled jobs in your own city government, public utilities, etc?

Granted, you cannot push a child to chose a certain field of study. They have to find out for themselves where their talents and desires are. But to not make full use of high school will make their chance of going into college and narrowing down an area of emphasis that will equate to a successful career path is borderline criminal.

A child needs to learn how to think. A good mentor presses them to do this. A child has to supply the drive to succeed on their own. Sometimes, their own peers help them here. The government is ill-equipped to raise a child up. They are the last entity we should be throwing our tax dollars at.

Fix your own community first. Find out what their needs are first. There's good money to be earned right there. What are the community industries and businesses doing to supply scholarships and internships to graduating students?
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:02 AM
 
13,966 posts, read 5,634,219 times
Reputation: 8621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I agree parents are the biggest piece of the puzzle.

What I'm getting at in my OP is that maybe the middle class is responsible for its own immiseration?
And here is the first tragic mistake those parents make - they implicitly agree that education can start at age 5-6 when they send their child to government run kindergarten.

The "privileged" elite will have been teaching their kids all sorts of stuff prior to age 5-6, but in general, the cultural zombie moan of "learning...begins....at...age...5..." can be heard all across the country. And having a kindergarten teacher in my immediate family (sister-in-law), I can tell you that many, many kids are given little to no prior learning of any kind prior to that first day of kindergarten. No letters, numbers, colors...nothing. Not because there was no "universal pre-K" crap, but because parents literally plop kids in front of Nick Jr for 5 years and then drop them off kindergarten.

Also, age determines the grade you're in, not mastery of subjects. An educated, motivated mom and dad could have a 5 year old with mastery of the entire 3rd-4th grade curriculum, but at age 5, the government says that kid is a kindergartener, maybe 1st grade, depending on when their birthday is. Same for the 5 year old who cannot speak, knows maybe 5 words, and is essentially tabula rasa. 5 years old say kindergarten, so plop them in a seat for that age bucket, engage the social promotion auto-pilot, disengage when they turn 18.

Too many parents implicitly agree to this engineered mediocrity for their children. They decide before school even starts that their kid will be an average, mediocre member of a collective.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,944 posts, read 2,943,941 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Public education had a huge effect on raising up the middle class from about 1900 until the 60s. The middle class heyday in the midcentury corresponded with the heyday of public education. Go figure.

The reasons for the decline of public education are legion and I don't want to rehash that debate. I'm more concerned with why we rarely hear about this decline as a driver of inequality. Wage stagnation is blamed on outsourcing, union busting, technology, etc. Underlying wage stagnation is productivity stagnation. And productivity stagnates when people stop becoming more educated.

Is it possible that the middle class is disappearing because the middle class is losing skills due to the decline of public education? I think it's very possible.
Its certainly part of it another thing is the breakup of unions. Without workers being able to get fair wages there living standards will inevitably drop.
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