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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,333 posts, read 54,437,898 times
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Originally Posted by Catgirl64
I interpreted that statement as meaning that atheism is morally neutral; that it's simply an absence of belief in God/gods and nothing more, less, or other than that.
I took it to mean lack of belief in God precludes believing things like murder, theft, adultery, et al are wrong which I disagree with.
I assume someone has asked the reasonable question, "Christian teachings" according to whom? Oddly enough, we have all sorts of Christian denominations that proclaim their own version of what they believe Jesus meant (and Jesus actually said very little, especially if you ignore the Gospel of John, which I think was made up wholesale long after He died).
Indeed, the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is controlled by a Muslim family (the same family for generations), precisely because the main three branches of Christianity in that city disagree on virtually everything, and, if given a chance, would exclude all besides their own particular brand of Christianity.
Would Christian teachings include St. Paul? After all, if we are to keep to the word of Jesus, then why would be follow the writings of Paul?
The Pope? Do we follow the teachings of the Popes through the ages?
It is a simplistic thought, on the whole. We certainly have plenty of laws prohibiting murder, stealing and such.
Actually it is. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." So you are ignoring the first half of the establishment clause with this silly proposal.
I'm not advocating banning any religion. The First Amendment forbids that.
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Atheism is not a religion. One cannot make a religion out of not believing something. Atheism is a religion like off is a TV channel. As for the legal implications, that case was debated on the prisoner's request for a study group, not his demand that it be recognized as a religion.
Incorrect. The Supreme Court ruled that atheism is indeed a religion. Read my OP.
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Those are not atheist values. Those are moral values. Off does not have specific values. Besides, which supposed "Christian values" are the right ones? Each denomination believes differently. My sister is Apostolic and thinks every woman must wear a dress 24-7. Does that mean every Christian woman has to wear a dress? Amish people believe in no electricity or cars. Do we have to take up horses and buggies again? Some Christians believe in taking Communion at each service or going to confession. Would those sacraments be required in your theocratic world? So what type Christian is the moral and decent type? Yours? Your neighbor's? The Pope's?
Since it is impossible to separate religion from governace, we should use the world's most popular largest and most moral religion in the world. Christianity, or more precisely, Catholicism.
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What is an atheist value? Where is the church of atheism located? If atheism is a religion, what is its creed? Tell us, because I am not aware of it.
Ask the Supreme Court what their thinking was when they deemed atheism a religion. If you want an atheist bible, just get a copy of Hustler. That's pretty close.
This might sound radical, or even unconstitutional, but it's not. It would not be a violation of the First Amendment which permits free practice of any religion.
Right now, the federal and state governments are ALREADY pushing one religion, and that is atheism. Atheism was ruled to be an official religion, "entitled to the same legal protections of other established religions" in the 2005 Supreme Court Case Kaufman v. McCaughtry.
We have seen the promotion of atheist values as abortion on demand up until birth regardless of it's health, of forcing businesses under threat of imprisonment to participate in gay weddings, and of forcing Catholics to purchase birth control for others, or face prosecution. New Jersey now requires LGBTQ history be taught in every school. The federal government gives half a billion dollars every year to the Planned Parenthood abortion mills. Every one of these policies pushes the atheist agenda and violates Christian teaching as well as common decency.
For folks who squawk about separation of church and state, time has proven this is impossible. There is no such thing as an absence of religion in a vacuum. It is not possible to separate laws from one religious value or another. Inevitably atheism becomes the de facto alternative fill-in. And atheism, as we have shown IS a religion with its own pro-active agenda.
There is only one way to solve this dilemma. Protect the moral and decent. Get rid of the immoral, the perverse, and the hideous. Protect the view that our country was founded on, the view held by most Americans and, really, every moral person: the views of Christianity. If promoting one religion is unavoidable, let's at least promote the right one. Let's do it now.
Atheism can't be a religion because religion means something like connecting back to (creator, god, etc.). Atheist don't have anything to connect back to.
You seem to promote another step towards dictatorship, religious dictatorship in this case.
What you consider Atheist values are in reality Humanist ones.
There is no point in forcing religion on people. When you look at thematic maps, you will notice that the best, most advanced countries on Earth are the least religious ones, and vice versa.
I am an atheist, and if you think that I have any moral deficits because of that, you are very wrong. My moral standards are way stricter than those of most Christians in my country.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,333 posts, read 54,437,898 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
My original quote was, "Secularism has no values, no beliefs, no identity, no ideology, no doctrine, no morals. It is infinitely-malleable."
Maybe what I should have said is, "Secularism has no intrinsic values. Whatever values it proclaims to have are arbitrary and ever-changing."
This ability to change its values is important for a large and diverse population, in an even larger and diverse world. Secularism is completely unchained, and its authority is unlimited.
This is a really good video. But the part of the video I wish you would watch is from about 3:15 to about 5:05...
The problem with the secular-ethic, is that its philosophical-foundation is "The greatest good for the greatest number". But this isn't an ethic at all.
What it actually means in practice is, sacrifice the few for the good of the many, and the end justifies the means.
Which is different than many religious values how?
The separation between state and church does not mean that the state is separated from the people. And often, a secular government is more reflective of the society as a whole. A theocratic society is often more reflective of the values of its theocratic leaders. I think we see that kind of division in Iran. Where the people are much more liberal than Iran's theocratic leaders.
I actually completely agree with you. I'm not defending theocratic government. I think all government is garbage. But secular-government in particular annoys me. Not because it is worse than theocratic governments in practice, but because the people who defend it don't seem to understand why it exists, and delude themselves into some sense of moral-superiority.
But let me say this, all governments are secular. Even so-called theocratic governments. Theocracy is just a facade that governments use to justify their rule. These "elites" who rule in every country are about as religious as Kim Jong-Un or Donald Trump.
The reason I mentioned Jefferson's quote, "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own".... Is because I was trying to illustrate how the government will try to use religion to justify itself.
There are three types of government. Government by force, government by god, and government by consent.
Government by force generally doesn't work well, because it requires constant violence to maintain, and doesn't produce much cooperation. Government by god requires far less violence, but its size is limited only to the extent that people adopt that religion.
In simple terms, every government is a prison, but a government by force needs about as many prison guards as inmates. Even if each inmate is turned into slave-labor, it simply costs too much to maintain that many guards, and the workers will be minimally-productive.
A government by god needs far less guards, and about half of the guards will actually be priests, who will tell people they will go to hell if they don't work. This kind of coercion only works if people believe it.
Government by consent is the most-productive form of government. It requires very few guards, and the people will work much harder, since they will believe they are working for themselves. They are told that they are the government, and that the government is them.
The difficulty in government by consent, is that the vast-majority of people are morons. Democracy doesn't actually solve any problems. So a government by consent requires a way to "produce consent". And this is normally done through mass-propaganda, through media and through government-education.
I consider having 'values' things like believing acts like murder and theft are wrong which has nothing to do with belief in God.
Serious miscommunication going on here. He isn't saying atheists by definition lack values. He's saying that values and atheism exist independent of one another. At least, I think that's what he's saying. Joe?
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