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What about the civil rights of the unborn? A woman has the right to control her body and her reproductive system before engaging in sex, duh. Use birth control or just say NO. What's so hard to understand?
The answers to your questions are in this thread. Try #770, #773 and #777 (mine) as recent examples of replies that respond to your questions. Additionally, far more articulate and eloquent posters, than I, have answered you many times, many ways over the life of the debate on this forum.
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind!
Peace.
Last edited by corpgypsy; 06-21-2019 at 10:16 PM..
Let's make some twist to expose the real reasons behind arguments.
It is very possible with the latest technology to grow human from one cell totally outside of womb. Questions for "pro-lifers":
1) At which moment we stop calling it "experiment"? Minute 1? Day 1? Day 10? Day 100? When - exactly! - is the cross line before which we still can say "hey, this particular organism is not viable/wanted/bored with" and stop grow it/dispose?
2) Are you ok with making human clones? If not, what is the specific reason? After all, it's a human being, just born/raised non-traditional way.
3) Cows are about as smart as one year old human. Are you eating beef? If yes, what is the reasoning for you for killing and eating the living being that is mind-equivalent to a one year old child (ok, may be the very stupid child, but you got the point)?
Everyone else: just note the line in answers when word "soul" will come to the argument
The three fifths compromise never said a slave was three fifths of a person. It said that three fifths of the number of slaves would be used to determine representation in the House of Representatives.
You might want to actually read the link.
By the way, the states with larger numbers of slaves would have been happy to count the entire slave population, because it would have increased their number of representatives.
Still has nothing to do with the fact that abortion is not murder.
The real injustice was that slaves did not vote. The "three-fifths" clause enhanced the vote of the slaveholders. The modern equivalent would be to court, for aid-allocation purposes, three-fifths of undocumented aliens since the cities in which they reside have to deliver services to those people, despite their non-inclusion for voting and redistricting purposes.
Did you actually view this long video? I did. I learned little that I already knew from this forum and elsewhere.
Since you're not religious, I'm sure you liked the part where the doctor said religion had nothing to do with his decision to quit doing abortions. He said after his daughter was hit by a car, she died in his arms in the ambulance. I think he felt great guilt from failing to protect his daughter from fatal harm. Continuing to do abortions only made the guilt feel worse.
Near the end of the video, in response to a question about what to do about abortion, it was very disappointing that about all he wanted to stress was to vote. Nothing about the government or other means doing more to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Nip the problem of unwanted pregnancies before they're even in the bud and you got abortion eliminated. But banning abortion isn't the solution. I don't know why pro-life people would prefer illegal abortions over legal ones. The outcome is still the same. No baby is born.
Near the end of the video was a recording of a woman who called an abortion clinic. She was 25 months along and was astounded to be told it would be a week long procedure that would cost $8,000. The price goes up $1000 for each additional week. What pregnant woman wants to go through that? What is wrong with society where a women can be this far along wanting an abortion? But it all starts with the need to gain easier access to birth control, along with the willpower to use it.
I am pro-choice and ideally NO choice. The pregnancy should be wanted from the very start.
"I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, not banning abortion, was the key to decreasing the number of abortions."
You aren't talking about this video. This video is about 5 minutes long.
He describes an abortion procedure and then explains why he stopped doing them during a house judiciary committee meeting. There are no phone calls.
If anyone can listen to the description of the abortion and STILL not think it's not killing a baby, they aren't being honest with themselves.
What about the civil rights of the unborn? A woman has the right to control her body and her reproductive system before engaging in sex, duh. Use birth control or just say NO. What's so hard to understand?
It is like a broken record, absolutely incredible. As if he has his fingers plugging his ears, eyes closed, and is yelling “lalalalala.”
At what point does a "fetus" become a person? At birth?
I would hope you wouldn't entrust anyone to take away the lives of human beings, period.
Should state legislatures be able to place any limitations on abortion in the first place?
As far as "legal personhood," yes, at birth. One certainly cannot take out a life insurance policy, get a social security number, or claim a tax exemption for a fetus. The law makes a distinction, in those instances and others, between born and unborn.
Now with that said, I think most pro-choice people are opposed to willy-nilly abortions after the point of viability. To me there must be a tremendously important reason for a 3rd trimester abortion (severe fetal abnormality, mother's life at risk).
But early in pregnancy? No, I just do not, cannot, put a fertilized egg/embryo/young fetus on the same level as a born, breathing, thinking, relationally-connected human being. A fertilized egg is no more a person than a sprouted acorn is an oak tree. "Becoming a human being" is a process. Conception is just the starting point in this process.
As far as "legal personhood," yes, at birth. One certainly cannot take out a life insurance policy, get a social security number, or claim a tax exemption for a fetus. The law makes a distinction, in those instances and others, between born and unborn.
Now with that said, I think most pro-choice people are opposed to willy-nilly abortions after the point of viability. To me there must be a tremendously important reason for a 3rd trimester abortion (severe fetal abnormality, mother's life at risk).
But early in pregnancy? No, I just do not, cannot, put a fertilized egg/embryo/young fetus on the same level as a born, breathing, thinking, relationally-connected human being. A fertilized egg is no more a person than a sprouted acorn is an oak tree. "Becoming a human being" is a process. Conception is just the starting point in this process.
Abortions past 25 weeks are very time-consuming in that there are certain steps to be taken over days.
There is no TIME to do an abortion in the 3rd trimester if the mother's health is at risk.
What will happen is that the baby will be delivered via c-section, which can be performed rather quickly in emergency situations, and then the mother's health is treated.
An abortion at 27+ weeks is about a week-long process from what I understand. It is rare to have an abortion for mother's health in 3rd trimester as it goes against emergency protocol. The mother would die first before the abortion was completed.
As far as "legal personhood," yes, at birth. One certainly cannot take out a life insurance policy, get a social security number, or claim a tax exemption for a fetus. The law makes a distinction, in those instances and others, between born and unborn.
Now with that said, I think most pro-choice people are opposed to willy-nilly abortions after the point of viability. To me there must be a tremendously important reason for a 3rd trimester abortion (severe fetal abnormality, mother's life at risk).
But early in pregnancy? No, I just do not, cannot, put a fertilized egg/embryo/young fetus on the same level as a born, breathing, thinking, relationally-connected human being. A fertilized egg is no more a person than a sprouted acorn is an oak tree. "Becoming a human being" is a process. Conception is just the starting point in this process.
Right, and most women (like... pretty much all) would not want an abortion past a certain point unless something was very wrong. There is a reason over 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, and it isn't because they're often illegal further on in most states. It's just ridiculous that people think women will wake up one day at 30 weeks or something and decide, "yup, I want an abortion today." It doesn't happen. No one is going to carry a pregnancy for months, deal with all the symptoms, discomfort, buying new clothes, watching what she eats and drinks, and so on, to suddenly decide one day that she doesn't want it anymore. No, most women know from early on that they do not want to continue with the pregnancy, and they will get it taken care of as soon as possible to avoid the pregnancy getting further along. Even considering that some states allow abortion at any point (mine has since way before the NY and VA laws conservatives were freaking out about), they are difficult to obtain and are expensive.
It's fear-mongering, as is the blatantly false claim that babies are aborted "after birth" as many conservatives on abortion threads will claim. Blatantly false because it is impossible. Use your brains, people, think logically, do not believe all the propaganda you hear.
Right, and most women (like... pretty much all) would not want an abortion past a certain point unless something was very wrong. There is a reason over 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, and it isn't because they're often illegal further on in most states. It's just ridiculous that people think women will wake up one day at 30 weeks or something and decide, "yup, I want an abortion today." It doesn't happen. No one is going to carry a pregnancy for months, deal with all the symptoms, discomfort, buying new clothes, watching what she eats and drinks, and so on, to suddenly decide one day that she doesn't want it anymore. No, most women know from early on that they do not want to continue with the pregnancy, and they will get it taken care of as soon as possible to avoid the pregnancy getting further along. Even considering that some states allow abortion at any point (mine has since way before the NY and VA laws conservatives were freaking out about), they are difficult to obtain and are expensive.
It's fear-mongering, as is the blatantly false claim that babies are aborted "after birth" as many conservatives on abortion threads will claim. Blatantly false because it is impossible. Use your brains, people, think logically, do not believe all the propaganda you hear.
Then who is getting the 3rd trimester abortions? See my post above.
The doctor has to kill the baby IN the womb before pulling it out to be an abortion. It's a process.
If a pregnant 3rd trimester woman's health is in danger, she's getting an emergency c-section and then treatment. Not an abortion.
Abortions past 25 weeks are very time-consuming in that there are certain steps to be taken over days.
There is no TIME to do an abortion in the 3rd trimester if the mother's health is at risk.
What will happen is that the baby will be delivered via c-section, which can be performed rather quickly in emergency situations, and then the mother's health is treated.
An abortion at 27+ weeks is about a week-long process from what I understand. It is rare to have an abortion for mother's health in 3rd trimester as it goes against emergency protocol. The mother would die first before the abortion was completed.
That is why exactly what you describe is done if the mother's health requires delivery. Labor is induced or a Cesarean is done if induction is not feasible or fails. Induction may be tried first because some very sick pregnant women will not tolerate major surgery very well.
Third trimester abortions are done for fetal reasons: the fetus will die anyway. The multiday procedure then is not an issue. The doctor will try to spare the pregnant woman the major surgery of a Cesarean, which often means future deliveries will also be by Cesarean.
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