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I have come to realize that it's nearly impossible to defend the state of socioeconomic inequality of blacks as not being rooted in some sort of innate inferiority without offending whites as being somehow morally inferior for the linked oppression. On the other hand, I am not sure that whites realize, maybe some do, that defending themselves or their race for this unequal socioeconomic condition, that they are offending blacks as inferior, as what other explanation is their that would explain the continued inequality?
The quagmire is that whites don't want their race to be seen as somehow innately inferior than any other race, when it comes to moral wrongs against humanity, and blacks do not want to be seen as being innately inferior to other races it their ability to produce socioeconomic parity with others. Thus, how does one account for current socioeconomic racial inequality in America, between blacks and whites, given the history of racial oppression of blacks in America? Blacks can't blame history without offending the nature of whites and whites cannot dismiss history without offending the nation of blacks.
I have never had the intent of making it seem like the white race is, by nature, morally inferior to any other race. I have never believed this. I don't believe this. I know that slavery has existed in all parts of the world and among all races of people. Its not exclusive to whites. People have been abusing and oppressing other peoples for nearly as long as human have existed. That is just part of our human nature. No race has cornered the market on inhumanity to humans. However, all that being true does not change the fact that America was set up as a nation where blacks would be subservient to whites. It does not matter who oppressed who in other places. In America, blacks were oppressed by white society....but that does not conclude that whites are somehow more immoral. Prior to this whites were oppression whites in Europe and blacks were oppressing blacks in Africa.
On the other hand, I do not get the impression from whites that they are willing to vouch for their belief that blacks are not inferior. The reason I believe this is that given the opportunity to explain racial gaps between black and whites in socioeconomic, it is almost always explained via blacks having some sort of innately inferior trait ( than whites). It's due to "personal irresponsibility". I am not sure what genes cause that, but apparently its inferior in blacks. It's "bad choices". Obviously making good choices requires a greater degree of intelligence and hence its implicit that blacks are not as intelligent. It's "not taking care of your kids". That signifies an inferiority in the ability to love and or have attachment and commitment to ones own offspring. In short, few will explain the gaps by noting the racial oppression of blacks, leaving only the nature of blacks to explain it.
I have emphatically stated that I do not believe whites are bad people any more so than any other race of people. You will not find any implicit contradiction of this either. No where is it being implied that the white race is better or worse than any other race. All that is being said is about AMERICA and what happened in America between blacks and whites. It's TRUTH, yet, that TRUTH offends which leads many to defend....by offending the nature of blacks as inferior. That is the best case scenario that the nature of blacks are being attacked in a knee jerk reaction to defend the nature of whites. The worse case scenario is that whites are not on the defense at all, but rather, on the offence as it relates to their belief that blacks are innately inferior.
I have come to realize that it's nearly impossible to defend the state of socioeconomic inequality of blacks as not being rooted in some sort of innate inferiority without offending whites as being somehow morally inferior for the linked oppression. On the other hand, I am not sure that whites realize, maybe some do, that defending themselves or their race for this unequal socioeconomic condition, that they are offending blacks as inferior, as what other explanation is their that would explain the continued inequality?
The highlighted is the concluding statement to your standard false dilemma. Your premise, which is indeed an observable fact, is that collective known as "black Americans" is lagging behind "white Americans" where certain socioeconomic indicators are concerned. Your hypothesis is that this is due ENTIRELY to both historic and current oppression of whites towards blacks. The false dilemma is that there is no other possible explanation beyond your hypothesis.
I won't go into the rest of your post because it is simply rewording or expounding on this central fallacy.
In general though, if you construct a false dilemma that essentially distills down to "the only reason black people lag behind socioeconomically is oppression by white people AND THERE CAN BE NO OTHER REASON," well, yeah, that would offend people in the group so accused under the false dilemma paradigm. That's just basic common sense.
Here's some suggestions, take them or leave them:
Recognize that you are trying, and not very hard at that, to assign collective blame to what is inherently an individual measure.
Recognize that by dismissing any and every possible variable that falls outside your "only explanation is white oppression" line of thinking, you can never satisfy the conditions of an acceptable null hypothesis, which means you will never have a valid proof.
Investigate further, and do so both objectively and individually, because that will lead you to examining variables that your current false dilemma is either not aware of or dismissing entirely.
The highlighted is the concluding statement to your standard false dilemma. Your premise, which is indeed an observable fact, is that collective known as "black Americans" is lagging behind "white Americans" where certain socioeconomic indicators are concerned. Your hypothesis is that this is due ENTIRELY to both historic and current oppression of whites towards blacks. The false dilemma is that there is no other possible explanation beyond your hypothesis.
I won't go into the rest of your post because it is simply rewording or expounding on this central fallacy.
In general though, if you construct a false dilemma that essentially distills down to "the only reason black people lag behind socioeconomically is oppression by white people AND THERE CAN BE NO OTHER REASON," well, yeah, that would offend people in the group so accused under the false dilemma paradigm. That's just basic common sense.
Here's some suggestions, take them or leave them:
Recognize that you are trying, and not very hard at that, to assign collective blame to what is inherently an individual measure.
Recognize that by dismissing any and every possible variable that falls outside your "only explanation is white oppression" line of thinking, you can never satisfy the conditions of an acceptable null hypothesis, which means you will never have a valid proof.
Investigate further, and do so both objectively and individually, because that will lead you to examining variables that your current false dilemma is either not aware of or dismissing entirely.
I certainly appreciate your scholarly breakdown of my argument. However, you are incorrect in stating that its a false dilemma. Binary options are not false dilemmas. There are inherently only two possible states of being, like binary code in computer machine language. Either something is "on" or its "off". No false dilemma in binary logic. Well, "internal" or "external" is binary logic as well. Hence, I suggested that black socioeconomic inequalities are either caused by forces INTERNAL to blacks or caused by forces EXTERNAL to blacks. Is internal vs external a false dilemma? Disprove that it represents binary logic. What other possible state is there between internal and external? You might say somewhere in between. Well, if its any part internal....that is to suggest that there IS something in the nature of blacks that is inferior to other races and that leads to explaining part of the lagging performance. Thus, its implying that its PARTLY black inferiority, partly racial oppression and partly something else. Concluding that ANY part of it is internal to blacks nature is to argue that blacks are innately inferior to other races. The only way to exonerate black inferiority it to conclude that NONE of the gap is rooted in the internal nature of blacks.
The above is true in the macro analysis of the situation, the micro analysis of individual experiences notwithstanding.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-17-2020 at 08:40 AM..
I certainly appreciate your scholarly breakdown of my argument. However, you are incorrect in stating that its a false dilemma. Binary options are not false dilemmas. There are inherently only two possible states of being, like binary code in computer machine language. Either something is "on" or its "off". No false dilemma in binary logic. Well, "internal" or "external" is binary logic as well. Hence, I suggested that black socioeconomic inequalities are either caused by forces INTERNAL to blacks or caused by forces EXTERNAL to blacks. Is internal vs external a false dilemma? Disprove that it represents binary logic. What other possible state is there between internal and external? You might say somewhere in between. Well, if its any part internal....that is to suggest that there IS something in the nature of blacks that is inferior to other races and that leads to explaining part of the lagging performance. Thus, its implying that its PARTLY black inferiority, partly racial oppression and partly something else. Concluding that ANY part of it is internal to blacks nature is to argue that blacks are innately inferior to other races. The only way to exonerate black inferiority it to conclude that NONE of the gap is rooted in the internal nature of blacks.
The above is true in the macro analysis of the situation, the micro analysis of individual experiences notwithstanding.
Your OP didn't assume it was one or the other or both. It pointed to the external white oppression that must be the answer.
But even if we agree that OK, the cause must be internal, external, or both, you still have really blunt "only one possible" definition of both forces. The only internal force is "inherent black inferiority" and the only external force is "white oppression of blacks." That is still a false dilemma because there are tons of variables, both internal and external, that are different even when the race is held constant.
Here's a quick, off the cuff drill down into one variable - "among college graduates, we find...." is a stat used to "prove" that it just has to be racism, since black college graduates lag white college graduates with similar years of experience. But inside that measure is WHAT WAS THE DEGREE IN? Black graduates tend towards a higher percentage of degrees in the social/soft sciences, and a lower percentage of STEM degrees than whites. Soft/social science jobs tend to pay less than STEM jobs based purely on supply/demand and neutral market forces. That is neither a black inferiority issue, nor is it white oppression, but collectively would result in black undergrads, as a whole, under performing compared to white undergrads, as a whole.
That's my point. Within a massive collective, there are legitimate reasons why you will find one group doing better or worse on some measure than another group, and quite often, there is no negative or antagonistic reason, but rather just a neutral variable (or several) that easily explains what you are seeing from a purely neutral, nondiscriminatory perspective.
I am not offended by these false dilemmas of yours, but in either direction, I could see why someone not as predisposed to study the issue further might be. Blacks are given two choices - you are inferior, or the white man holds you down. Whites are given two choices - blacks are inferior, or you are a racist oppressor. Intelligent people of either race will say "WTF" and ponder what about all the myriad other variables that are simple, easily observable, Occam's Razor type answers for why things are how they are.
Your OP didn't assume it was one or the other or both. It pointed to the external white oppression that must be the answer.
Yes I did....but that is consistent with saying that it was either or. Right? I just chose one of the options for my explanation. If I said that the choice was binary, and I did.....I just chose one option.
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But even if we agree that OK, the cause must be internal, external, or both, you still have really blunt "only one possible" definition of both forces. The only internal force is "inherent black inferiority" and the only external force is "white oppression of blacks." That is still a false dilemma because there are tons of variables, both internal and external, that are different even when the race is held constant.
That is true. There are tons are variables in regards to external forces acting upon a population but which of those forces are not shared in degree or kind? For example, lets say that there was the force of the Great Depression. That was a negative force impacting upon blacks.....but it was also impacting on whites as well. Hence, I am not saying that there is only one negative external force that has impacted blacks, that being racism. What I am saying is that the external force that has impacted blacks in degree or kind different from whites.....has been the force of racial oppression.
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Here's a quick, off the cuff drill down into one variable - "among college graduates, we find...." is a stat used to "prove" that it just has to be racism, since black college graduates lag white college graduates with similar years of experience. But inside that measure is WHAT WAS THE DEGREE IN? Black graduates tend towards a higher percentage of degrees in the social/soft sciences, and a lower percentage of STEM degrees than whites. Soft/social science jobs tend to pay less than STEM jobs based purely on supply/demand and neutral market forces. That is neither a black inferiority issue, nor is it white oppression, but collectively would result in black undergrads, as a whole, under performing compared to white undergrads, as a whole.
You have just employed the fallacy of composition. The fact that something does not hold true for explaining a particular "gap" does not therefore mean that it does not hold true in explaining the aggregate gap. Ergo, because there is a white person who earns less than blacks does not mean that in aggregate white income is not much higher than black incomes. Hence, just because one gap cannot be explained by racism does not mean the aggregate socioeconomic gaps are not explained by the accrued impact of racism. Furthermore, one cannot just isolate something like college graduates and control for other forces of race and racial history playing a role.
That having been said, I personally would never make that claim that you asserted. If you want to debunk an argument.....debunk an argument that I have made. I would never juxtapose college graduates and not narrow it down to a particular discipline or disciplines. I would also not compare mortgage rejection rates between races without controlling for credit history or income to debt ratio. You can't just pull up some argument that I never made.....then use it to discredit the argument that I did make.
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That's my point. Within a massive collective, there are legitimate reasons why you will find one group doing better or worse on some measure than another group, and quite often, there is no negative or antagonistic reason, but rather just a neutral variable (or several) that easily explains what you are seeing from a purely neutral, nondiscriminatory perspective.
I totally agree. However, one has to go even more granular than your example. Why are blacks not enrolled into STEM at the rate that white college students are? What roll does the history of oppression play in that? Your analysis was too superficial. Those factors you broke down can be broken down further by asking WHY. Why and what would lead to blacks behaving differently and making different choices?
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I am not offended by these false dilemmas of yours, but in either direction, I could see why someone not as predisposed to study the issue further might be. Blacks are given two choices - you are inferior, or the white man holds you down. Whites are given two choices - blacks are inferior, or you are a racist oppressor. Intelligent people of either race will say "WTF" and ponder what about all the myriad other variables that are simple, easily observable, Occam's Razor type answers for why things are how they are.
The truth is at least 98% of black “inferiority “ is due to slavery, Jim Crow, the welfare state and the war on drugs. The latter two disproportionately effect involuntary minorities to use Ogbu’s term.
We can do nothing about the past so the answer to reducing black “inferiority” is tearing down the welfare state and eliminating the war on drugs.
As you have stated man’s inhumanity to man is a universal trait. The natural rights of mankind are always under attack. Once European’s began to recognize natural rights racism had to be utilized to maintain the existing order as much as possible without violating the natural rights of those of European descent. Some men had to be designated as something less than men.
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