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Old 04-27-2023, 07:26 AM
 
779 posts, read 425,576 times
Reputation: 2140

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye77 View Post
Let me clear this up for you:
A. NOT getting a vaccine is harmful
B. Banning AR15s is harmful
C. Not discussing LGBTQ issues in school is harmful.

You're welcome.
Thank you for helping me make my point.
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Old 04-27-2023, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
24,521 posts, read 17,271,978 times
Reputation: 35824
Full Freedom is impossible in a Society based on and held together by Laws.

Of course we have many that are living outside society. These are the ones that live on the streets where they are free to do as they please from taking drugs to sleeping all day, to shoplifting any thing they want to attacking passerbys and robbing them.

Most of us are shocked when random crime hits an innocent person and saddened when the criminal is released back on the streets to do it again. This is becoming more commonplace.



It is easy to be Free when you have nothing to lose but most of us are trying to do better for ourselves. Perhaps in a way our possessions are enslaving us?
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Old 04-27-2023, 07:43 AM
 
13,984 posts, read 5,641,670 times
Reputation: 8636
You define "full freedom" as Mad Max dystopia because you have been told that without a government mommy/daddy, you will become that violent sociopath instantly. Do you truly believe that the only reason you peacefully coexist with your fellow humans is solely because you fear government reprisal if you do not? And if you do not believe that, then why would you be special while the rest of us are obviously going to descend into murderous barbarians?

Here's the plain truth of the world - the vast majority of a species that has cooperation baked into their survival instinct tend to know inherently how to get along without anyone telling them how or threatening them if they don't. 99% of your daily existence is based on voluntary association, mutual cooperation and peaceful coexistence. You're an anarchist (the rule of nobody) in all but a very tiny fraction of your existence, and you don't even realize it. You do tons of things every single day without asking permission, seeing what the law is pertaining to that action, having a 3rd party government agent approve, etc...which is in fact, navigating your life without anyone ruling you directly.

In a world ruled by the Non Aggression Principle instead of involuntary rule by a government that holds a monopoly on force and violence, there are still bad actors, but instead of a 3rd party handling your problems with those bad actors, YOU handle your problems. And the rules are simple as hell - all initiations of force with intent to cause harm are incorrect, immoral, illogical and disordered. If you initiate force with the intent to cause harm, you voluntarily and willingly surrender any and all of your own natural individual rights, up to and including the right to life, to both the person you attempt to harm, as well as the larger society of peaceful individuals. How far the person you attempt to harm wishes to take their defense is entirely up to them.

Very few things would change, minus how long it takes for a criminal to be "brought to justice" and what form that "justice" takes. Consider the home invasion. If you are like me and own firearms with which you are proficient, nothing changes. The person invading my home catches bullets to the chest. Done. What changes is after I deal with the invader. In the NAP world, I now have to rid my house of the dead body and then go back to bed. In the current world, I have to go to jail because I defended myself. In which world do you think criminals are more willing to keep being scumbags?

Take another example - the shoplifting craze sweeping major cities. Shoplifting is theft and theft is an initiation of force with intent to cause harm. In the current world, security guards have to stand and watch criminals go about their initiations of force against the shopkeeper, and both shopkeeper and insurer are penalized twice (first the theft, then the recompense) while the criminal is literally rewarded. Pure lawlessness, in this nation of laws. Now, in the NAP world, the shopkeeper can defend themselves and their property against initiations of force in any manner they choose, since the NAP is clear and simple - any initiation of force is wrong, but any defense against an initiation of force is right. So now some idiot walks into an NAP drugstore with a garbage bag and looting on their mind, and the instant they walk out the door with their ill gotten gains, the shopkeeper or agent they tasked with their defense, stomps a mudhole into that thief's rear end, like a proper beating that leaves them crippled. Perfectly justified under the NAP, and now that said shopkeeper has made the community aware of how they handle thievery, how many more folks will give stealing from that store a shot? Maybe one or two more dopes who don't hear the news, but doubtless, it would not require too many more occurrences before idiots got the message that trying to steal from that store can get you all sorts of effed up, maybe even dead.

You and I don't initiate force because we inherently know it's wrong. In our current world of government and many laws, lots of bad actors out there doing lots of bad things, and our current response is to LET THEM, because oh, they are disadvantaged and blah blah. And every single scumbag criminal in America KNOWS this. In an NAP world, they have no idea which of their daily bad actions gets them beaten, crippled or maybe even dirt napped. Even apex predators in the animal kingdom understand and avoid threats. But if they know instinctively that no threat exists, they kill/feed at will. Why would a human criminal be any different? Right now, the worst threat any criminal faces is free room and board, free gym membership and 3 squares a day, just inside a prison. In an NAP world, every single bad action can legitimately, logically and justifiably end up with them dead as hell. Which world do you think makes them more cavalier about continuing a life of crime?

Everyone thinks it is government that holds things together. Nope. It is our belief and faith in holding it together. Cooperation and mutual survival is baked into human nature. It is primordial. And expelling cancerous cells from the host organism is far more natural than our current world of laws where we protect the cancer cells and try to have them coexist inside the organism in the name of health.

You see the rule of nobody as a bad thing, and I see it as allowing peaceful, cooperative people to go on about their normal business with fewer bad actors in their midst.
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Old 04-27-2023, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
23,861 posts, read 24,134,380 times
Reputation: 15141
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."

"Full freedom" doesn't mean "Mad Max." Nobody's free in that scenario.

"Full freedom" (an ambiguous term I'd never personally use) means you can do what you like, as long as you're not infringing the rights of others.

It's the idea of "live and let live" in practice.
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Old 04-27-2023, 07:52 AM
 
19,069 posts, read 27,648,953 times
Reputation: 20284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
I certainly don't believe in it. Full freedom exactly equals a Mad Max post-Apocalyptic Hellscape (aka "anarchy" in the common sense of the term).

We should maximizes personal freedoms that don't hurt, harm, or degrade the essential well-being of others BUT restrict (eliminate if reasonable to do so) the freedom to non-defensively hurt, harm, or degrade others.

So IOW, for me, "Yes" to vaccine and mask mandates and abortion, "No" to teacher-led prayer and sub-living wages.



This is contradictory idea, regardless of the principles vocalized.
On one hand, you promote personal liberties, not freedom. On the other hand, you promote forceful restriction of other personal liberties, not accepted within your paradigm of the world. MOF, you only want to have a world, where YOUR personal liberties and, those of like you, are fully allowed but, those of others, who have different opinion, are suppressed.
Which is a basic totalitarian state with whoever currently has the largest biceps, has upper hand and stomps the others.



Very "freedomlike" idea.


BTW, same goes for the famed democracy. Or, "rule by the people". That works only if ALL the people are cookie cuttered individuals with identical mindsets. Otherwise, they will all be different in their desires and will each and one pull in his or her personal preferences directions. Inevitably, a force needs to be applied, to keep all this mess in order. Bye bye democracy, welcome central government.
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Old 04-27-2023, 08:03 AM
 
3,500 posts, read 2,792,050 times
Reputation: 2154
People believe in full freedom if it it applies to the political side they identify with. If it's the political side they disagree with then they no longer care about freedom.

Both the left and the right are guilty of this.
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Old 04-27-2023, 08:05 AM
 
3,651 posts, read 1,608,414 times
Reputation: 5093
A mandate to fax or wear masks may be beneficial. Or it may not. Here's an idea- use proper scientific research to determine if so! Which wasn't done in the last pandemic. Instead, an experiment was mandated.

"No" to experimental faxine mandates.
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Old 04-27-2023, 08:09 AM
 
5,989 posts, read 2,244,758 times
Reputation: 4627
No one does when faced with the realities of a Wild West type world.

People talk a lot of crap about absolute freedom but when real-world scenarios are presented they always return back to some form of structure with Government institutions involved in some capacity.
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Old 04-27-2023, 08:09 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
5,044 posts, read 2,406,658 times
Reputation: 3590
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose?
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Old 04-27-2023, 08:43 AM
 
9,529 posts, read 4,357,799 times
Reputation: 10626
Quote:
Originally Posted by remco67 View Post
"most people", Thats a nice survey you did. i cant think of anybody who would believe that once they are actually allowed to take 2 minute and think about what that would actually mean.
There are some posters on C-D who actually believe in "full freedom" across the board - in other words, rights have no restrictions.
Then there are people who think rights should be unrestricted for specific things about which they are passionate (guns, abortion for example) while happily supporting Draconian restrictions on stuff that doesn't impact them directly.
Then there are people who acknowledge that all rights are subject to restrictions and are unbiased enough to apply restrictions uniformly.
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