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Status:
"I Choose Freedom Over Democracy!"
(set 3 days ago)
Location: Crooked Pennsylvania
1,313 posts, read 654,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa
Yes. It is very analogous to the European conquest of the Americas, in particular the westward expansion of the United States. The situation for the Palestinians is like that of the Cherokee, Sioux and Apache. Their lands have been taken by settlers and they have been put on reservations (West Bank and Gaza). Some renegades got off and killed a bunch of settlers. They will pay the price and be put back on their place.
And YOUR house is occupying stolen land - I suggest you turn it over to the rightful owner..
Yes. It is very analogous to the European conquest of the Americas, in particular the westward expansion of the United States. The situation for the Palestinians is like that of the Cherokee, Sioux and Apache. Their lands have been taken by settlers and they have been put on reservations (West Bank and Gaza). Some renegades got off and killed a bunch of settlers. They will pay the price and be put back on their place.
The methods by which the oppressed people are managed are remarkably similar as well. Put them onto reservations that can't support them making them dependent on the oppressor. When they balk, cut off that support. When they revolt, massacre them.
Not really, what was done in Israel (the initial land purchases) were 'legal.' Legal doesn't mean right in the eyes of everyone but in the end legality is all that separates chaos from order. The State of Israel was 'legally' established by the United Nations. Once again, I appreciate that many Arab countries did not agree. Hamas creating terror in Israel is in no way 'legal.' (There may well have been quasi-legal shells as the Indians were tricked but the financial transfers in Israel were between educated financially-sophisticated parties who unfortunately were not the landless Palestinian peasants.)
Not really, what was done in Israel (the initial land purchases) were 'legal.' Legal doesn't mean right in the eyes of everyone but in the end legality is all that separates chaos from order. The State of Israel wad 'legally' established by the United Nations. Once again, I appreciate that many Arab countries did not agree. Hamas creating terror in Israel is in no way 'legal.'
Legal or not, they will continue doing it not fearing any consequences coming their way. It is a no win tug of war for either side.
Not really, what was done in Israel (the initial land purchases) was 'legal.' Legal doesn't mean right in the eyes of everyone but in the end legal is all that separates chaos from order. The State of Israel wad 'legally' established by the United Nations. Once again, I appreciate that many Arab countries did not agree. Hamas creating terror in Israel is in no way 'legal.'
What was done in the US was legal as well. In fact, it was legal to kill Native Americans in many jurisdictions. The LAW ordered Native Americans to leave their lands and let settlers take over. We honor a president on our currency who ordered a forced marched of Cherokee Indians to Oklahoma killing hundreds in the process. They were compensated in theory with lands in Indian Country. The law, again. They oppressor always acts under color of his own law.
FWIW, many of the Israeli settlements are, in fact, illegal. They are built in areas where neither law nor agreements allow. The same thing happened in US westward expansion, of course.
And YOUR house is occupying stolen land - I suggest you turn it over to the rightful owner..
Why would I do that? My forebears stole the land and I bought and paid for it. I am not on a moral high horse here. This is simply reality. It happened here. It happened everywhere. The powerful steal from the weak. They displace them and maybe eventually even extinct them. What has changed, I suppose, is that until fairly recently, there was no objection. In fact, the conquerors were revered. Now poor Columbus has been deprived of his holiday.
What was done in the US was legal as well. In fact, it was legal to kill Native Americans in many jurisdictions. The LAW ordered Native Americans to leave their lands and let settlers take over. We honor a president on our currency who ordered a forced marched of Cherokee Indians to Oklahoma killing hundreds in the process. They were compensated in theory with lands in Indian Country. The law, again. They oppressor always acts under color of his own law.
FWIW, many of the Israeli settlements are, in fact, illegal. They are built in areas where neither law nor agreements allow. The same thing happened in US westward expansion, of course.
Difference is what happened in the US back then predated modern international L&O system. It was unethical but there was no law but jungle rules dictating how people acted. What Israel does now should comply with today’s international legal guidelines.
What was done in the US was legal as well. In fact, it was legal to kill Native Americans in many jurisdictions. The LAW ordered Native Americans to leave their lands and let settlers take over. We honor a president on our currency who ordered a forced marched of Cherokee Indians to Oklahoma killing hundreds in the process. The law, again. They oppressor always acts under color of his own law.
FWIW, many of the Israeli settlements are, in fact, illegal. They are built in areas where neither law nor agreements allow. The same thing happened in US westward expansion, of course.
I agree with you when it comes to the Israeli settlements. I don't think the pre-1948 land transfers were, however, fully analogous to the situation on the US frontier. In whole, I think the argument can be made that the settlers 'stole' land from the Indians who used it on a communal basis. That really did not apply to the Palestine, certainly under the British mandate where land was already legally titled.
I think but could be wrong that Israel will recognize the old Ottoman titles but the problem is that owners went missing as refugees, and could not return to claim it at which point the land was declared to be vacant. Not saying a lot of this is fair.
The Law, in general, may not be fair, although we see some states (think California) attempting to give tenants more rights than other states (think Texas). I think the important point is to move away from a blind charge that Israel and the Jews "stole" land, with the listeners then envisioning that it was somehow done by force. Yes, later, of course the IDF "encouraged" the Palestinians to become refugees, but then for their own purpose so did the Arab states.
It's just very complicated. At some point, though, peoples make better lives by moving on - which by and large Arab countries have not permitted, as Palestinians remain stateless. More violence does nothing.
I just spent the last three hours reading the history of Israel, and I would suggest those interested in finding the truth as to how this latest incursion came about, read the history entirely.
Israel is not entirely to blame for "taking over" the land once known as Palestine.
Israel was directed by the British and French, as well as Arab nations to move into, and settle in Palestine.
It is easy presently to say Israel invaded, and took away land belonging to the Palestinian people, but a through reading of the history proves it was under the mandates of the British, French, and Arabs.
They were all complicit in moving on Palestine.
Regardless of who started this movement to take over the land, it should never have happened, and just because it was ordered by the British, French, and Arabs, does not make it legal, or humanitarian.
Obviously it has caused many wars in the region since.
Many , even in governments, have stated a "two state" agreement is the only way to settle this dispute.
The Palestinians say they do not want this.
They want the complete removal of the Jewish state of Israel.
The truth is, the land was "stolen" from the Palestinians, and they want it returned.
I feel Israel certainly has the right to exist, but not in today's geographical Israel.
Unfortunately it is not realistic to demand Israel pick up and move to another parcel of land on planet earth, though I believe that is the only real solution to this, and future conflicts.
A more simplistic example would be, suppose you lived in your house for many years, and suddenly a group of people decided to take over your house and property?
You would try and fight like hell to preserve what is yours, and would not want to give it up.
Now, because you won't relinquish your property to this group, they decide to build a few houses in your back yard, in the hope it will force you out.
Your only recourse is to fight back, find where this group of people is staying, and demolish it.
Sounds rather familiar don't you think?
No, it's not but the slaughter of Israelis, the degree of hate and the cheers from Hamas supporters make it clear this will never stop - until Israel leaves or is destroyed. Either Israel starts doing something different or this won't end well. Something different? Like what? I don’t know but something.
Because at some point as technology increases a number of devices will be smuggled into Israel. When detonated half the country will cease to exist. The fallout from the blasts and retaliation by Israel will kill just as many Palestinians but this will be it...Israel will leave. Absorbed by Western counties until a new home can be found. It would make no sense to rebuild the country only to see it happen again.
I just spent the last three hours reading the history of Israel, and I would suggest those interested in finding the truth as to how this latest incursion came about, read the history entirely.
.......
Sounds rather familiar don't you think?
You can start from any point in history and apply that logic.
There were the Mayans, Aztecs, Incans and multiple indigenous people living in Central and South America. They were killed, conquered and uprooted by the Spanish and Portuguese. Should the current Spanish and Portuguese uproot themselves and move back to Spain and Portugal?
It sounds absurd. So is the moving out of Israelis to another country. Palestinians have to accept the two state solution. No other option for them.
Eh, the Jews always had Israel, just over the vast space of time they were often chased out by more powerful armies. And I don't care what wikipedia says.
God promised that land to the descendents of Abraham. He then directly led the Israelites to the land as is told In exodus. Having God give you a piece of land is the best and most solid land claim in all of history.
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