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camping, you've brought this point up at least 6 times in two threads.
It hasn't happened, it is not the reality, so why fret over it.
If you want to live your life in the future, go right ahead but it's not a valid argument at this time.
Viability will most likely not be less than 25 weeks. It takes that long for development. These aren't heroic measures we're talking but natural development of a human fetus.
I just want to add that I, and I'm sure others as well, come across as judgmental in my opinion.
I have teenagers, who I pray are never in a position to make this decision. I hope they're not having sex but if they do, I have hammered the birth control issue into their heads so much that I hope they stick to what they know and don't take chances.
I feel for people who are in the position where they're pregnant and their lives will be changed forever if they choose to have a child (whether it be career, school, etc.)
But again, from a position of compassion, action needs to be taken right away. In my mind there's no other way to make an abortion "acceptable", and no excuse for not taking such action. (Of course, I'm referring to mentally competent woman and not considering the occasional person who somehow is unaware for three months that she's pregnant.
[quote=DD70;4061222]Pretty simple.
Interesting how you don’t respect the choices that others make for their own lives. How does another person’s actions affect you in any way?[/quote]
Interesting point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;4049839
Oh yeah, the inconvenience of coming up with 300 bucks must be so difficult for these pro-deathers. These pro-murderers need to come up with a new gig besides the reproductive rights argument, and the difficulty of making the decision.[/quote]
You are pro-life this much is clear and entitled to your opinion. ProChoice individuals believe that a woman has the right to make the choice of what she chooses fit for her body and herself regardless of the reasons. There are many reasons why women choose to have abortions but I will refrain from stating these since these reasons have been stated over and over on this forum.
lol! We have a comedian on board! No professional help needed only decisions that are made by the individual that has the right to make them.
[b] Scientists tell us that the fetus has no awareness and no pain sensations until after the fifth month of pregnancy.
Hydrocephaly is one of the most common cases for late term abortions. The fact that your child has the half of his/her top head missing and the little to no brain activity and only roots and sucks due to primal instinct not because they recognize the action is sad. The reality that these children die within hours of being born.
I am hesitant to agree with later term abortions, I feel if they are to be done they should be done within the first 3 months. I am glad to hear that your brother made it into this world however who is going to care for him when your parents are gone? As a parent that would be my biggest concern, it is too often heard that adults with cognitive delays are throwinto institutions and are abused or neglected, I hope you feeling the way you do you will take charge after your parents are gone after all a choice was made.
You have to understand that some parents be it that they want a child more than anything in this world think more about the quality of life. Some of these parents are not equipped to care for these types of children let alone fathom the possibility that should they try for moralities sake...what happens if they cannot?
And then face the possibility of putting the child in an institution? You need to understand all the facets and factors before you condemn.
camping, you've brought this point up at least 6 times in two threads.
It hasn't happened, it is not the reality, so why fret over it.
If you want to live your life in the future, go right ahead but it's not a valid argument at this time.
Viability will most likely not be less than 25 weeks. It takes that long for development. These aren't heroic measures we're talking but natural development of a human fetus.
You are keeping track of my posts? I blush!
Viability is a valid argument at this time, as is the argument that fetus' can feel pain. As I have also explained numerous times in numerous threads legal abortion is here to stay, so lets make it the earlier the better. Frankly even by the end of the first trimester there begins a question of pain.
As far as my point with viability goes --- does that make a difference? Or rather, will it and should it make a difference when viability becomes 20 weeks? Science is moving along rapidly and abortion cannot stay within 1972 guidelines.
The reference to future possibilities is not a valid argument in this thread.
We're talking about the here and now.
Your argument is so absurd that I do notice it time and again, especially when educated (not emotional) people are refuting it.
Your view is that there begins a question of pain after the first trimester. How about showing some science on this?
Guess what, viability comes at 25 weeks, not 20 weeks. Over 80% of abortions take place during the first trimester anyway. You might want to look at the nice charts presented above.
The time it takes for viability is 25 weeks, just because you want it to be shorter does not make it so.
Cut out some 20 week old fetuses and see if they can survive without heroic measures. Let's see what happens.
Wishing to change science doesn't work.
Are you saying that all animal species are reaching viability earlier, or is this just some super special developmental phase in humans only? We've known for centuries that it takes 9 months for human gestation. Has that changed since 1972? Are you saying that scientists quit looking at human life in 1972? And that you know more than any of the educated scientists who do study human life? I'm impressed.
Show where there is any valid science that indicates that the human species now develops at a faster speed? I don't hear of the general population birthing at 7 months. Do you?
I just want to add that I, and I'm sure others as well, come across as judgmental in my opinion.
I have teenagers, who I pray are never in a position to make this decision. I hope they're not having sex but if they do, I have hammered the birth control issue into their heads so much that I hope they stick to what they know and don't take chances.
I feel for people who are in the position where they're pregnant and their lives will be changed forever if they choose to have a child (whether it be career, school, etc.)
But again, from a position of compassion, action needs to be taken right away. In my mind there's no other way to make an abortion "acceptable", and no excuse for not taking such action. (Of course, I'm referring to mentally competent woman and not considering the occasional person who somehow is unaware for three months that she's pregnant.
Well as a mother of a pre-teen you can hammer away to your hearts content but ultimately it is their decision and from my experience with todays youth ...at times contra. is the last thing on their mind.
[quote=arod0331;4062278]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70
Pretty simple.
Interesting how you don’t respect the choices that others make for their own lives. How does another person’s actions affect you in any way?[/quote]
Interesting point.
The reference to future possibilities is not a valid argument in this thread.
We're talking about the here and now.
Your argument is so absurd that I do notice it time and again, especially when educated (not emotional) people are refuting it.
Your view is that there begins a question of pain after the first trimester. How about showing some science on this?
Guess what, viability comes at 25 weeks, not 20 weeks. Over 80% of abortions take place during the first trimester anyway. You might want to look at the nice charts presented above.
The time it takes for viability is 25 weeks, just because you want it to be shorter does not make it so.
Cut out some 20 week old fetuses and see if they can survive without heroic measures. Let's see what happens.
Wishing to change science doesn't work.
Are you saying that all animal species are reaching viability earlier, or is this just some super special developmental phase in humans only? We've known for centuries that it takes 9 months for human gestation. Has that changed since 1972? Are you saying that scientists quit looking at human life in 1972? And that you know more than any of the educated scientists who do study human life? I'm impressed.
Show where there is any valid science that indicates that the human species now develops at a faster speed? I don't hear of the general population birthing at 7 months. Do you?
Cut the crap and the rhetoric. It isn't cute or appropriate when evangelicals use it or when anti gays use it and its certainly not becoming of you.
Viability is 22 weeks, no longer 25.
Babies have actually been born (or should I say parasites have been expelled?) at 20 weeks and have survived. With medical intervention no doubt. Still, I would hazzard a guess that should you find yourself being treated for a stroke, you would still consider yourself human despite whatever extreme medical measures are used to save your life.
I am not saying scientists have stopped looking at human life since 1972. I am saying that abortion apologists have stopped looking at the evolution of neonatal science since 1972.
Knowing what we know now, do you deny that saline abortions in the second and third trimesters were barbaric?
Because that is what this thread was about you know....second and third trimester abortions.
And of course it is great that fewer are being performed --- still, 20% is too much.
As far as to why the spate of sudden premies and whether or not the human species has suddenly speeded up the process ---- again, stop the insulting crap and try to argue an issue like an intelligent adult. Of course the reason for premie survival is modern medicine, and of course premies are surviving with medical intervention. The question is does that make them less human? Anymore then a person undergoing a heart transplant? What about cancer treatments? Or do you have to live a certain time before you become fully human? Perhaps an hour after a full nine month gestation? Where is that line?
Bottom line, abortion is an emotional issue. How can it not be? For either side? I would like to think that few people are as crass as to believe that human life and suffering is negligible if it is small just as I would like to think that few people are as naive as to believe that abortion will never happen if illegal or if enough abstinence based education is taught. I believe most people concede that abortion is a necessary evil, if you will, in our society. But we can and should mitigate any and all potential damage it can and does cause. (yes, I am talking about Ashermans. You may recall that from another thread as well.)
So like it or don't. I understand though that China has very liberal abortion laws, hell you can have a third trimester abortion done against your will even! How very enlightened and woman centric of them
Cut the crap and the rhetoric. It isn't cute or appropriate when evangelicals use it or when anti gays use it and its certainly not becoming of you.
Viability is 22 weeks, no longer 25.
Babies have actually been born (or should I say parasites have been expelled?) at 20 weeks and have survived. With medical intervention no doubt. Still, I would hazzard a guess that should you find yourself being treated for a stroke, you would still consider yourself human despite whatever extreme medical measures are used to save your life.
I am not saying scientists have stopped looking at human life since 1972. I am saying that abortion apologists have stopped looking at the evolution of neonatal science since 1972.
Knowing what we know now, do you deny that saline abortions in the second and third trimesters were barbaric?
Because that is what this thread was about you know....second and third trimester abortions.
And of course it is great that fewer are being performed --- still, 20% is too much.
As far as to why the spate of sudden premies and whether or not the human species has suddenly speeded up the process ---- again, stop the insulting crap and try to argue an issue like an intelligent adult. Of course the reason for premie survival is modern medicine, and of course premies are surviving with medical intervention. The question is does that make them less human? Anymore then a person undergoing a heart transplant? What about cancer treatments? Or do you have to live a certain time before you become fully human? Perhaps an hour after a full nine month gestation? Where is that line?
Bottom line, abortion is an emotional issue. How can it not be? For either side? I would like to think that few people are as crass as to believe that human life and suffering is negligible if it is small just as I would like to think that few people are as naive as to believe that abortion will never happen if illegal or if enough abstinence based education is taught. I believe most people concede that abortion is a necessary evil, if you will, in our society. But we can and should mitigate any and all potential damage it can and does cause. (yes, I am talking about Ashermans. You may recall that from another thread as well.)
So like it or don't. I understand though that China has very liberal abortion laws, hell you can have a third trimester abortion done against your will even! How very enlightened and woman centric of them
...just when I think you have been as clear, rational and intellectually honest as it is possible to be in a post, you outdo yourself. This post is brilliant. So well thought-out and expressed and so PATIENT. You are a Saint. (Throwing roses at your feet).
I agree! Some folks like to derail the conversation and add some insults to throw their opposers off...camping!, thank you for expressing what the rest of us have been trying to put into words.
Cut the crap and the rhetoric. It isn't cute or appropriate when evangelicals use it or when anti gays use it and its certainly not becoming of you.
Viability is 22 weeks, no longer 25.
Babies have actually been born (or should I say parasites have been expelled?) at 20 weeks and have survived. With medical intervention no doubt. Still, I would hazzard a guess that should you find yourself being treated for a stroke, you would still consider yourself human despite whatever extreme medical measures are used to save your life.
I am not saying scientists have stopped looking at human life since 1972. I am saying that abortion apologists have stopped looking at the evolution of neonatal science since 1972.
Knowing what we know now, do you deny that saline abortions in the second and third trimesters were barbaric?
Because that is what this thread was about you know....second and third trimester abortions.
And of course it is great that fewer are being performed --- still, 20% is too much.
As far as to why the spate of sudden premies and whether or not the human species has suddenly speeded up the process ---- again, stop the insulting crap and try to argue an issue like an intelligent adult. Of course the reason for premie survival is modern medicine, and of course premies are surviving with medical intervention. The question is does that make them less human? Anymore then a person undergoing a heart transplant? What about cancer treatments? Or do you have to live a certain time before you become fully human? Perhaps an hour after a full nine month gestation? Where is that line?
Bottom line, abortion is an emotional issue. How can it not be? For either side? I would like to think that few people are as crass as to believe that human life and suffering is negligible if it is small just as I would like to think that few people are as naive as to believe that abortion will never happen if illegal or if enough abstinence based education is taught. I believe most people concede that abortion is a necessary evil, if you will, in our society. But we can and should mitigate any and all potential damage it can and does cause. (yes, I am talking about Ashermans. You may recall that from another thread as well.)
So like it or don't. I understand though that China has very liberal abortion laws, hell you can have a third trimester abortion done against your will even! How very enlightened and woman centric of them
Great post! I'm giving you rep for this one. And in case you didn't know, there is no reasoning with chielgirl b/c she is totally against kids and finds them distasteful in all circumstances (read the parenting forum if you have doubts). She considers those of us who choose to have children breeders. Kudos for being able to sum up what so many of us have tried to say in response to the OP.
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These pro-murderers need to come up with a new gig besides the reproductive rights argument, and the difficulty of making the decision.[/quote]
