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the elimination of one public sector job creates two in the private sector.
I would love to see you demonstrate that theorem. Of course if you assume that the cost of one public sector job is twice as much as one in the private sector you might have some basis for an argument, as tenuous as that argument might be. Demand for Labor, like any other good, is based upon utility, how much of a particular good is needed, or desired. The elimination of one firefighter, may not be socially more desirable than two checkout clerks at Wal-Mart, even assuming that the cost of two Wal-Mart checkout clerks less than or equal to one firefighter. Additionally, the marginal rate that each individual in society pays for that fighter is far less that what an individual would pay for those two private sector jobs, so, on a per person cost basis, the public receives far greater benefit from the one fire fighter than the two Wal-Mart clerks. See where, I'm going?
Yeah, you're not going to find the private sector producing public goods. All the empty-headed theory in the world can't turn some sow's ear into a silk purse. It's the wise society that seeks a balance between public and private goods. No society survives at all without some of each...
The state can create jobs, it can not create wealth, which expands the job market naturally.
The postulation that one public sector job equals two private sector jobs is a difficult theorem for many to understand for those who believe in the labor theory of value.
It is extremely long logical argument proposed by Austrians like Murray Rothbard and would take up too much space to properly expound upon in a forum such as this.
I suggest for anyone interested in how my comment is accepted within the Austrian school of economics. the first thing is to read these links. The Fallacy of the Public Sector, by Murray Rothbard http://mises.org/journals/rae/pdf/rae10_1_1.pdf http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Sechrest7.pdf
Take my word on this, most people who can properly comprehend this concept deserve a degree in economics it is difficult to understand, more so for those who believe several Keynesian economic fallacies.
I won't go into a length dissertation on just how discredited the "Austrian" school of economics is, yet, so I will just stick to one of the links.
"Apart from the public sector, what constitutes the productivity of the "private sector" of the economy? The productivity of the private sector does not stem from the fact that people are rushing around doing "something," anything, with their resources; it consists in the fact that they are using these resources to satisfy the needs and desires of the consumers. Businessmen and other producers direct their energies, on the free market, to producing those products which will be most rewarded by the consumers, and the sale of these products may therefore roughly "measure" the importance which the consumers place upon them. If millions of people bend their energies to producing horses-and-buggies, they will, in this day and age, not be able to sell them, and hence the productivity of their output will be virtually zero. On the other hand, if a few million dollars are spent in a given year on Product X, then statisticians may well judge that these millions constitute the productive output of the X-part of the "private sector" of the economy."
Among the needs and desires of the consumer is a ready supply of clean drinking water, fire protection, police protection, food and drug safety, building safety, regulation of parking, mass transit, sanitation, and a free and reliable system for interstate commerce, none of which are preformed or could be performed by the private sector. It is for this reason that the "Austrian" school has been rendered to the whacko libertarian wing of economic thought, see Ron Paul.
You need to look again at the number of private contract employees funded by government spending.Many companies can be made or broke by government contracts.The vast majority of work done other than emergency or maintenance is done by private contractors.Government has long ago outsourced the majority of work done by all governments except for that noted.That is because the amount of work is so huge paid for by government over the years.Just think for example how the interstate ;state and local roadway system has grown since 1950 alone.
All of your consumer needs and desires are quite easily provided by the private sector provided consumers want those services.
The Austrian school of economies discredited? By who? Economists of other schools? Hardly!
Since no country has yet practiced Austrian economic theory, it would be impossible for anyone to offer examples of Austrian failure.
Praxeology which is the science of human action practiced by Austrians, looks at the logical structure of human action. It is a philosophy.
Austrian economics is derived from the idea that everyone makes conscious subjective decisions to improve themselves or improve a person's satisfaction.
If Austrians like Ron Paul are such supposed crackpots, how does one explain such accuracy within his economic predictions.
Or better yet, how have I managed to make good money off the markets using Austrian economics if the policies are discredited.
It was Austrian theory that led me to short Gm last spring, smart move that was cha-ching.
In the end however, what does it matter, this discussion is futile for both parties, much in the matter that socialists and libertarians can not meet eye to eye, different priorities etc.
The state can create jobs, it can not create wealth, which expands the job market naturally.
This is the sort of mindless whimsy that marks Austrian sympathizers as the mystics and cultists that they are. The so-called Austrian School (which flatters itself greatly by assuming such a name) would not exist at all were it not for the tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars that have been poured into preserving it by extreme right-wingers and ultra-libertarian whackos such as the Bradley's, the Scaife's, the Coors', and so on. If left to survive on the merits of their own scholarship, this tiny fringe group would long ago have disappeared into the mists of their own ethereality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
The postulation that one public sector job equals two private sector jobs is a difficult theorem for many to understand for those who believe in the labor theory of value.
It's a difficult one to take seriously for any who believe that the sun rises in the east. There is no difference between work performed in exchange for a paycheck drawn on a corporate-owned bank account and that performed in exchange for a paycheck drawn on a government-owned bank account. There are thousands who shuttle back and forth between the public and private sectors, and many more who work in both simultaneously. The nature and value of these workers and what they produce does not magically undergo some sort of exchange-rate transmogrification each time they cross a sectoral border. The postulate is not so difficult to understand...it is merely malarkey. The only difficulty arises in understanding how anyone could have proposed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
Take my word on this, most people who can properly comprehend this concept deserve a degree in economics it is difficult to understand, more so for those who believe several Keynesian economic fallacies.
Some of us already have degrees in economics at various levels and a few have served as practicing professionals within that very field for several decades. As one of those, I can summarize the entire "Austrian School" in two, easy-to-understand words...junk science.
All of your consumer needs and desires are quite easily provided by the private sector provided consumers want those services.
What sort of proviso is that? If consumers didn't want such services, they wouldn't have been included among their needs and desires to begin with. All balloons are red, provided that they are red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
The Austrian school of economies discredited? By who? Economists of other schools? Hardly!
For every actual economist claimed as a member of the alleged Austrian School, there are perhaps 200 actual economists who scoff at it. This is basically the same situation as exists between astrologists and astronomers. One of those two groups is really just a bunch of crackpots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
Praxeology which is the science of human action practiced by Austrians, looks at the logical structure of human action. It is a philosophy.
Yes, rationalism...a branch of philsophy that was basically abandoned about 250 years ago. Why do Austrians cling to the flaws of a dead and essentially pre-empirical era? Because rationalism allows them to make particularly qualitative claims without having to justify them as anything other than "not irrational". Markets make better decisions than governments. That's not an irrational statement, hence it can be taken as true on no further evidence of its actual veracity at all. Endless examples of corrupt, distorted, and malevolent markets are to no end at all. The presumption still stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
If Austrians like Ron Paul are such supposed crackpots, how does one explain such accuracy within his economic predictions.
No actual economist makes any predictions at all that are beyond a three- to six-month timeframe. Ron Paul has been issuing the same warnings for thirty years, and for thirty years, he has been wrong. Then along comes something that can be vaguely looked at as if it might make him sort of right, and all of a sudden he's supposed to be a genius. I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve
In the end however, what does it matter, this discussion is futile for both parties, much in the matter that socialists and libertarians can not meet eye to eye, different priorities etc.
Socialists and libertarians can agree on a great many things. It's data-driven pragmatists and dogma-driven ideologues who tend to run into trouble with each other...
Government layoffs is music to my ears. We need to just kind of go through all our government bureaucracies and layoff about every other person on the payroll. We will then give every remaining manager twice as much work to do and then fire the ones who can't keep up.
You are a moron. I am a probation officer employed by the State of NJ, Judiciary Branch. I guarentee my workload is 10x your amount. Come do my job for 1 week and then you can talk your asinine theories about laying off every other person who works for the state. State employees are underpaid and overworked. Whatever myths you hear are just that: myths. No probation officer should ever be laidoff due to the incompitence of this Liberal-run state. Laying off people who make 40k, 50k, 60k a year will accomplish nothing. Lay off all the political cronies making 6 figures a year who do nothing. How about not making ludicrous decisions in the first place that runs the state into debt?? After Tom Kean left office, this state has gone to hell. It went from a prosperous Republican state, to a corrupt Liberal state mounting in debt. No one can afford to live in this state. Highest property taxes, income taxes, and car insurance in the entire country. Liberals and raising taxes, what a joke. The nation is going to sink into a great depression soon too with the newly elected unqualified, socialist president. Anyway, Corzine has no authority over the Judicial Branch, and if they do layoff state workers, it sure as hell won't be in public safety, healthcare, or education.
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Layoff state workers??? What a stupid statement
