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lol.. of course they vote against their best interests...
republicans are mean selfish greedy people... what do you expect.. they vote to keep their options open for greed, selfishness, and being mean even if it isn't a reality right now....
What I don't understand is that you communists repeatedly claim that I'm misrepresenting Marx. Time and again, I request that you point out how I misunderstand him. Time and again, you repeat and repeat and repeat... that I don't understand.
Why lie? You haven't read Das Kapital. Firstly there are two volumes, secondly its one of the most dry and boring books to read in the world. Thirdly, you are misstating its positions left and right.
And yes...I'm a communist because...hmm...is it because I will vote for Obama or because I'm talking about it? I don't know.
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Originally Posted by One Thousand
Just explain it. In what way am I misrepresenting communism/socialism?
I already have.
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Originally Posted by One Thousand
Explain how the means of production isn't property?
Just read the Communist Manifesto if you want to understand it. I've already explained. Communism is about the blight of the working class via the exploitation of the bourgeoisie. Means of production refers largely to labor and the way labor is organized, not physical property.
You are asking me for citations for something that is stated on almost every page of the manifesto. That shows...you haven't ahem...read it.
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Originally Posted by One Thousand
That's why it's still socialistic even he says it isn't. It's a step toward socialism... and that's why Obama is a communist.
This is just boring now. Even if he nationalized the entire health care industry that is rather far from communism. But nothing he wants to do will nationalize health care. It can perhaps create national health insurance, but that is rather different than a completely nationalized health care system.
Anyhow, this is getting boring. You are saying nothing different from the official republican dogma. I have no interest in debating (if you want to call it that) with a partisan.
But I do thank you for giving folks a fine example of how the republican strategy works. I find it truly amazing that it works so well. I think it demonstrates nicely how easily it is to turn a democratic government into a fascist government. If you can control the voters, then you can effectively form a dictatorship.
Thirdly, you are misstating its positions left and right.
What's being mis-stated?
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And yes...I'm a communist because...hmm...is it because I will vote for Obama or because I'm talking about it? I don't know.
I think it's because you don't have respect for freedom because you've never been oppressed, you have a sense of entitlement and you don't understand capitalism. (Those are the standard factors I see in every communist/socialist.)
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I already have.
Then quote the passage that explains it.
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Just read the Communist Manifesto if you want to understand it. I've already explained. Communism is about the blight of the working class via the exploitation of the bourgeoisie. Means of production refers largely to labor and the way labor is organized, not physical property.
How does "means of production" differ from property? Cite a passage that demonstrates that the means of production aren't property.
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You are asking me for citations for something that is stated on almost every page of the manifesto.
I have no clue how you come to that.
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Even if he nationalized the entire health care industry that is rather far from communism. But nothing he wants to do will nationalize health care. It can perhaps create national health insurance, but that is rather different than a completely nationalized health care system.
It's all communism.
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You are saying nothing different...
Because you'll not answer the questions. What else is their to say but repeat the same questions that you refuse to answer?
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But I do thank you for giving folks a fine example of how the republican strategy works.
I didn't realize asking questions was the strategy... but if so, you're welcome. I'm sorry you couldn't answer them.
You can continue to ask me the same question again and again. But I'm no longer interested in playing your game. At first I thought you were someone that was interested in learning, but its clear you are just a partisan tossing out republican dogma.
But yes, I'm a communist and have a sense of entailment. Of course, you have no idea what I've experienced or even what I think about matters (Expect perhaps that I think you know nothing about communism and socialism)....so that makes your claims well...just plain stupid.
Have fun with the partisanship. As I said before, you gave a perfect example of what I wanted to talk about in this thread. So for that I thank you = )
You can continue to ask me the same question again and again. But I'm no longer interested in playing your game. At first I thought you were someone that was interested in learning...
You have to know more than your pupil when you intend to teach.
When you're able to explain how socialism is practically different from communism in such a way that any reasonable capitalist would see the difference between those oppressive belief systems, hurry back and explain, won't ya? Until that time, I'll stick with the good ol' concepts America was founded on.
When you're able to explain how socialism is practically different from communism in such a way that any reasonable capitalist would see the difference between those oppressive belief systems
Here it is one last time. Socialism is a system were key industry is put under common ownership (Either government, or owned by the workers), but other industry is still under private ownership and property is still under private ownership. Furthermore, there are still class distinctions. There are of course varying degrees of socialism, for example many European countries have a relatively mind form of socialism. On the other hand communism does not allow private ownership of business or property, everything is seen as owned by the people. Communism advocates a classless system, nobody can exploit anybody else etc. Capitalism and communism are opposites and socialism is a mix of the two.
This is really simple, I'm sorry if you can't understand.
Socialism is a system were key industry is put under common ownership (Either government, or owned by the workers), but other industry is still under private ownership and property is still under private ownership.
Yes, that's the condition that Marx/Engels refers to when they say:
"Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property... "
If socialism is part of the implementation of communism, why would any reasonable person consider them to be different?
If socialism is part of the implementation of communism, why would any reasonable person consider them to be different?
Marx thought that Communism couldn't directly come from Capitalist, rather there would be a step middle first. That doesn't mean socialism necessarily transforms into a communist state. In fact the many socialist systems in Europe show this isn't the case. If anything some Europe countries have become more Capitalist over the years, contrary to what Marx thought would happen.
A reasonable person should consider them to be different, because they are rather different.
Anyhow, I'm sure you have something better to do with your time, like running around calling Obama a communist etc.
A reasonable person should consider them to be different, because they are rather different.
If, by reasonable person, you mean someone concerned with intellectual exercises about the differences between oppressive forms of government, then I'd agree with you. However, as a normal person opposed to oppression, why would I differentiate between the two?
However, as a normal person opposed to oppression, why would I differentiate between the two?
Marx would argue that Capitalism is the most oppressive economic structure, so I suppose we shouldn't differentiate between any of them.
The idea that Capitalism prevents or is even opposed to oppression is naive at best.
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