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You know, I like to think I am a pretty well read person. I have always read and studied books about anything and everything that took my fancy. And from all of that reading and study I have recently discovered I have a burning need to ask this question. Why is it automatically bad to talk about Jewish people? Of all the races, creeds, and religions this one particular group is nearly beyond discussion. The minute the word Jewish enters the equation its all over. You are automatically anti-Semitic or more simply put, a hater of Jews.
But see, the funny thing about the whole idea of being anti-Semitic is that people are confused about what Semitic actually means. The definition is as follows:
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem.
As you can see Semitic does not simply mean Jew. All Middle Eastern countries fall under this catagory because Semitic does not refer to a specific people but to a large group of people who speak this similar tongue. So you see, although I know they have gone and even defined the word anti-Semitic to mean anti-Jew, it just doesn't mean that.
See, by the true definition of what a Semitic person is, anyone who dislikes any of the people from these regions can be labeled anti-Semitic.
Furthermore, it is utterly ridiculous to always take the side of one group simply because of things that happened in the past. The Holocaust was one of the worst events to ever take place on this earth. And the world has wept many tears for those 6 to 10 million Jews and Gypsies who lost their lives to the German extermination. But that does not render them untouchable. Just like anyone else, Jewish people do wrong and people should not feel like they can't speak about that fact without being labeled a person who hates Jews. It has to stop.
Just like every other group of people around the world, Israel has enemies. Many of which are also enemies of the United States. And the real tragedy is the Jews and the Arabs should not be fighting. They are brothers. But the real point is the Jewish people cannot be put up higher than everyone else. All people are the subject of ridicule at times, and many times they deserve it. But everyone is afraid to speak about Jewish people, because of the verbal beating they will receive for even using the word. It's ridiculous.
So I say bring it on. Tell me what you all think. Am I totally out of line here for speaking plainly or do you see the point? Do you now think I hate Jewish people because I decided to speak? And if I were to start a sentence with " And then this darn Arab starts ...." would you even blink or notice? All responses welcome. Keep it civil.
No one deserves a "get out of everything" card no matter what they have been through. If people wish to respectfully discuss Jewish people then they should be able to without fear of retribution.
Here's the thing......talking about Israel is not anti semitic. Disagreeing vehemently with Israeli policies towards the Palestinians is not anti semitic.
What is anti semitic is talking about 'the jews' as in 'the jewish conspiracy to do away with christmas' or 'the jews hate America' or 'the jews control all the worlds money' or 'the jews planned 911'.
That is either paranoid or racist and most likely both and not worth actual discussion. After all, would you think someone who started posts by saying 'everyone knows the whites are behind ....' or 'it is all the fault of the blacks..' is even remotely credible?
Hell no. That would be beyond the pale. (and bonus points if you know where that phrase originates from)
bonus points if you know where that phrase originates from
I do! I do!
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
Here's the thing......talking about Israel is not anti semitic. Disagreeing vehemently with Israeli policies towards the Palestinians is not anti semitic.
What is anti semitic is talking about 'the jews' as in 'the jewish conspiracy to do away with christmas' or 'the jews hate America' or 'the jews control all the worlds money' or 'the jews planned 911'.
That is either paranoid or racist and most likely both and not worth actual discussion. After all, would you think someone who started posts by saying 'everyone knows the whites are behind ....' or 'it is all the fault of the blacks..' is even remotely credible?
Hell no. That would be beyond the pale. (and bonus points if you know where that phrase originates from)
I don't disagree with you entirely. I don't think the thread is inappropriate, no. And the term anti-Semitic doesn't make any sense--you're right, but I think people have just accepted an alternate meaning anyway.
Of course there's a huge difference between, say...not supporting Israel and the content of a certain person's posts that we've been seeing today. The latter judged an entire people and essentially claimed that they're trying to take over the world.
The part that puzzles me is the end of your post. "If people wish to respectfully discuss Jewish people then they should be able to without fear of retribution." In what way, though? I just think it's a nebulous statement. Are we supposed to be able to discuss the legitimacy of Israel or whether or not all Jews have big noses? (Hopefully no one takes the last bit seriously). One should note, too, that questioning the existence of Israel does not constitute an offense to all Jewish people. And that brings me to another point--not all believe the same and hold the same political views, so how can we "respecfully discuss Jewish people" while avoiding generalizations? How can we do that with any group, unless we keep our comments so broad that they wind up being applicable to just about all people, and so they aren't really relevant anymore?
I'd just like to point out that the term anti-Semitic was created by groups opposed to the Jewish emancipation in Europe. They wore the label anti-Semitic with pride. Just thought I'd give you that background on the term anti-Semitic. As for your assertions, I agree, no one person should get a free pass because of past injustices. One bad seed doesn't represent everyone. The Muslims who were responsible for 9/11 don't represent all Muslims or even most Muslims. In reality they represent a small fraction of extremist Muslims in much the same way that Christians who blow up Planned Parenthood buildings or shoot doctors who perform abortions represent a very small fraction of Christians in the world.
As far as I know, everyone is allowed to talk about everyone regardless of religious affiliation. I think I would understand better if you gave an example because I think you are talking about a specific incident that I'm not aware of so I can't really speak to that situation. If the person dislikes a Jewish person BECAUSE they are Jewish or because of something that relates to their Jewish faith then that is cause for them to be called anti-Semitic. I'm also confused about how their religion would come up in conversation. Unless someone's dislike about that person was directly related to their religion, I don't see why it would come up in conversation.
I don't disagree with you entirely. I don't think the thread is inappropriate, no. And the term anti-Semitic doesn't make any sense--you're right, but I think people have just accepted an alternate meaning anyway.
Of course there's a huge difference between, say...not supporting Israel and the content of a certain person's posts that we've been seeing today. The latter judged an entire people and essentially claimed that they're trying to take over the world.
The part that puzzles me is the end of your post. "If people wish to respectfully discuss Jewish people then they should be able to without fear of retribution." In what way, though? I just think it's a nebulous statement. Are we supposed to be able to discuss the legitimacy of Israel or whether or not all Jews have big noses? (Hopefully no one takes the last bit seriously). One should note, too, that questioning the existence of Israel does not constitute an offense to all Jewish people. And that brings me to another point--not all believe the same and hold the same political views, so how can we "respecfully discuss Jewish people" while avoiding generalizations? How can we do that with any group, unless we keep our comments so broad that they wind up being applicable to just about all people, and so they aren't really relevant anymore?
I'm curious if you are familiar with the exchanges between Norman Finkelstein and Alan Derschowitz? Finkelstein wrote a controversial book called, The Holocaust Industry and set in motion a long series arguments between the two men.
Finkelstein asserted that many Jewish people used the tragedy of the Holocaust as means to gain a kind of victim status that had the original intent of giving solidarity to Jewish peoples post WWII. Subsequently, he pointed out that later it was used as a means to deflect criticism from a variety of actions taking place by Israel. Dershowitz of course rebukes this very strongly and I believe Finkelstein has been referred to as a self hating Jew because of his positions.
Alan Dershowitz on the other hand has suggested that since by Israel's own national charter, it is to be a "Jewish only state", that criticism of Israel is in fact criticism of Jews and so thus antisemitic. In fact, this is somewhat of the position of the United States State Departments working definition of Antisemitism, "strong criticism of Israeli policies". Many in academia refute this if for no other reason that it excludes any criticism of actions by Israel solely on the basis that to do so is racism.
In the past I put antisemitism into two categories, the first being the old traditional "killers of Christ" type antisemitism. The second being those who believe Jews have some conspiracy to take over the world and enslave the gentiles, to which we see in abundance today. After reading The New Face of Antisemitism I added a third which is those people in which Jews disagree with.
From my own experiences I have found that the level of criticism is slight before one is given this label. The fear of being called antisemitic is as powerful as being called a racist and it is handed out by many with far more ease.
Rather than interpretation of what the State Dept defines as critism of Israel linked to antisemitism, here is the quote from the US State Dept:
The definition of anti-Semitism has been the focus of innumerable discussions and studies. While there is no universally accepted definition, there is a generally clear understanding of what the term encompasses.
For the purposes of this report, anti-Semitism is considered to be hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity. An important issue is the distinction between legitimate criticism of policies and practices of the State of Israel, and commentary that assumes an anti-Semitic character. The demonization of Israel, or vilification of Israeli leaders, sometimes through comparisons with Nazi leaders, and through the use of Nazi symbols to caricature them, indicates an anti-Semitic bias rather than a valid criticism of policy concerning a controversial issue.
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