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Are you joking? Socialism is a form of liberalism; we Democrats tend to support a variety of traditionally socialist welfare programs (universal healthcare, universal access to higher education).
I can see your point, at least as far as Bush is concerned
But when I listened to talk radio earlier this year, they seemed to say that any slight movement to the left was a march toward european socialism.
To me Socialism would have to be 50% tax rate and a Sweden style welfare state. a slight increase in the top tax rate isn't socialist to me, just centre left. I just wonder what other people think. Does liberalism = socialsim? Why or why not?
Well they would constantly justify their stance and how superior it is by saying look this European country does it....
no joke adrift. socialism=bush admin, bernake: bush's man, the boy who cried wolf for wall st. bank bailouts, you can't get anymore socialist that that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift
Are you joking? Socialism is a form of liberalism; we Democrats tend to support a variety of traditionally socialist welfare programs (universal healthcare, universal access to higher education).
Originally posted by Ever Adrift
You're dichotomy is incorrect. Socialism is essentially a form of economic liberalism. Liberalism is a political philosophy that, and I'm oversimplifying here, can be broken down into social and economic aspects.
Social liberals tend to strongly support human rights; they are traditionally pro-choice, pro-women's rights, pro-gay rights, pro-minority rights. Social liberals tend to strongly favor the separation of church and state, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech and freedom of movement.
Economic liberals tend to support government intervention in the economy. They tend to believe that the government has a responsibility to provide a variety of social programs to its citizens. In other words, economic liberalism translates into support for welfare programs. Universal healthcare, social security, unemployment benefits, government-sponsored job training, universal education... all tend to be supported by economic liberals. Economic liberals also usually support more government regulation of the economy.
Socialism is a form of liberalism. It may help to view political ideology as a continuum from right to left, with the right side being 'conservative' and the left side being 'liberal.' The left side of the spectrum closest to the middle tends to be relatively moderate and still supports capitalism--a good example of this would be the right wing of the Democratic Party here in the US. As you move further and further left you reach socialism and then, eventually, communism.
Now, it gets even more complex. Socialism is a generic term that actually describes a wide array of political and economic ideologies. I myself am a 'social democrat' which is a very moderate form of socialism; the left wing of the Democratic Party largely fits this ideological classification. Many European liberal parties are social democratic parties, too. Social democracy supports capitalism, but in a highly regulated form. Social democracy supports things such as universal healthcare, universal education, and an expansive welfare system supported by high taxes, particularly on the rich. At the same time, social democrats support capitalism, though they also support government ownership of some industries, often in competition with private enterprises. Social democrats are both social and economic liberals. Moving further left, you run into democratic socialism and then communism.
Admittedly, this is a gross oversimplification. If you're interested, wikipedia actually has pretty decent articles on social democracy, socialism, democratic socialism, liberalism and all the rest. Socialist International (Socialist International - Progressive Politics For A Fairer World) is an excellent site/organization on social democracy (most social democratic political parties are members) and has a complete list of principles supported by social democrats if you're interested.
Thanks adrift, I'll check out the wikipedia articles. Maybe it'll help me sort these different groups out. For someone who's never studied this it's kind of dizzying.
The average taxpayer falls into the 25% income tax bracket. Plus they pay an additional 7.65% in MediCare/MedicAid taxes on their first $80,000. Plus they pay an additional 7.5% in Social Security income taxes, and their employer pays another 7.5% on their behalf. That alone adds up to 47.65% in just federal income taxes. Then there are the federal alcohol and gasoline consumption taxes and communication taxes. That is before we get into state and local taxes. Overall, the average American is paying well over 50% of their total income in taxes of one form or another.
Ridiculously bad numbers. The 25% marginal tax bracket for a married couple filing jointly begins at $100K, roughly twice the median household income. The average effective federal income tax rate is about 12 cents per dollar of AGI. Social Security taxes were equal to 6.2% of the first $102K in 2008. Medicare taxes were 1.45% of all income in 2008. You don't pay the employer portion of either one. There is no separate tax for Medicaid. It is paid for out of general revenues. Per the Congressional Budget Office, the overall numbers for total federal tax burden by income category for 2005 were as follow:
Bottom 20% -- 4.3%
Next 20% -- 9.9%
Middle 20% -- 14.2%
Next 20% -- 17.4%
Top 20% -- 25.5%
Top 10% -- 27.4%
Top 5% -- 28.9%
Top 1% -- 31.2%
As you can see, no one at any income level comes anywhere close to the levels you have claimed to be average.
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Originally Posted by Glitch
That is exactly right according to the Fiscal Year 2009 Federal Budget, $1.767 TRILLION has been allocated to Social Security and MediCare/MedicAid. With a $3.1 trillion federal budget, that is 34% going to Social Security and 23% going to MediCare/MedicAid, for a total of 57% of the entire federal budget being spent on socialist programs.
More malfeasance. Total proposed spending in FY2009 Budget...
There is nothing vaguely similar between fascism and communism as political and economic philosophies.
Of course throughout the 50's and 60's the most rapid anti-communist were left of center. One of the great ironies is that one of the foremost opponents of socialism and socialist was the American labor movement.
Once again, I guess I wasn't clear enough for some. I wasn't implying they were the same, or similar. Fascism is the extreme Right, Communism is the extreme left. They do have common beliefs, most importantly that the citizen is subordinate to the government. That's in marked contrast to the liberal and the conservative philosophies, which believe government serves the citizen. There's more on this in response #76 of this thread
no joke adrift. socialism=bush admin, bernake: bush's man, the boy who cried wolf for wall st. bank bailouts, you can't get anymore socialist that that!
You can call the Bush administration socialist all you want; while the bailout can be construed as partially socialist, the fact remains that the Bush administration has largely opposed any policies that could possibly be construed as socialist. Remember when Bush wanted to privatize ('de-socialize') social security? Socialism is a left-wing ideology that has many supporters in the left wing of the Democratic party (I'm one of them!). I don't think socialism is a dirty word; I think we need more socialist policies. Democrats, being the liberal political party in the US, are far more supportive of socialist welfare programs than are Republicans. That's why many of us Democrats support universal healthcare, expansion of the welfare system and the like.
You have to keep in mind "Liberalism", etc. has CHANGED so much from what they meant in the past... however, Socialism means the same thing today as it did in the past (as well as communism and conservatism)... Neo-conservatives keep referring themselves as "conservatives" when in fact they are NOT... they are more inclined towards fascism just as the liberals of today (even though they still call themselves "liberals") are more of socialists... that is NOT to say that every liberal = socialist and that every conservative = fascists because there are a RARE few who are true to heart liberals and true to heart conservatives, however their party has BOTH been hijacked by fascists (neo-conservatives) and socialists... so in TODAY'S world, yes the liberals are more socialists than a true liberal and conservatives are more fascists (neo-conservatives) than true conservatism. and yes socialism is one the dirtiest word in politics because they are the very ESSENCE of corruption... when someone holds that much power, it doesn't bode well for anyone... when the politics of THEFT is the central theory of life... don't have enough of something? Steal it from someone else... just hope that isn't YOU (too bad the ones who are free of theft are those at the TOP... the politicians, their celebrity friends, and the uber-wealthy)... socialists are the most selfish of all politics...
Well they would constantly justify their stance and how superior it is by saying look this European country does it....
Which, despite your derogatory treatment of it, is a legitimate, logical argument. If someone says, categorically, that socialist programs simply do not work because they are inefficient and impractical the natural response would be to provide examples of socialist programs that have, in fact, worked in an efficient and productive manner. It just so happens that most of the world's Social Democracies are in Europe, so it's a common region to make reference to when defending socialist programs.
Last edited by Ever Adrift; 01-03-2009 at 01:59 PM..
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