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The more experience one has in debating, or posting, will eventually lead to a better technique of not attacking personally - however, sometimes, instead of diplomacy, you have to 'smack em', and human nature wins again.
I don't hunt but good one hahahah. Confirms my sense of hunters. Little furry critters don't shoot back. Precisely why we went to Iraq, it was already a disheveled mess, the easiest target, the one to draw a crowd. Yep, poorly led after the initial assault. Yep the same lack of determination and will to win as in Vietnam. Yep we're still carrying the left on our backs just like in Vietnam. Nobody never won no war with civility. As long as we keep making that mistake we will never win a war. It is likely too late to show that brute force. If we did our young men & women would have to endure the spit of the ne'er do wells. Yep Bush launched a war and didn't allow his Generals to execute. My guess is again the rules of engagement. It was nonetheless necessary, the right war at the right time. I say we give it until the end of the year and come home. I don't want our young men and women dying for politicians that fail to execute the will of the military in a time of war. Maybe our Generals are stupid? I know this much. Most of Europe has already surrendered to the Mooslums. I have no respect for their God or their society. It is our society that has evolved. You may not think much of Christians, I may not write too well, but I read well enough to know that as a man and as a philosophy of life, Mohammed is not so much as a pimple on the butt of Jesus Christ. If they want my respect they can earn it. It is their responsibility more than ours to rein in their criminals. When they establish rule of law throughout their own societies to the point they don't want to kill me for my enculturation, I am good with that. Until they do to quote a phrase, I'll be satisfied ,that we are the predator -not the prey.
IMO, you were making good sense until you started knocking those who BELIEVE different than you. Since you have no evidence that your belief is correct, your political arguments would be much more credible to leave them out.
I was out of town for an extended period of time and was unable to keep up. But, as you asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cil
The White House has repeatedly linked 9/11, WMDs and Iraq.
Dick Cheney on Meet the Press, 2001:
CHENEY: Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists. That wasn't the question you asked the last time we met. You asked about evidence involved in September 11.
RUSSERT: Correct.
CHENEY: Over the years, for example, they've provided a safe harbor for Abu Nadal , worked out of Bagdad for a long time.
The situation, I think, that leads a lot of people to be concerned about Iraq has to do not just with their past activity of harboring terrorist, but also with Saddam Hussein's behavior over the years and with his aggressive pursuit of weapons of mass destruction.
MR. RUSSERT: Do we have any evidence linking Saddam Hussein or Iraqis to this operation?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: No.
Quote:
Condolezza Rice on Meet the Press, 2001:
The president has made very clear that this is a broad war on terrorism; that you cannot be supportive of al-Qaeda and continue to harbor other terrorists. We’re sending that message very clearly.
Now, as to Iraq, we didn’t need September 11 to tell us that Saddam Hussein is a very dangerous man.
We didn’t need September 11 to tell us that he’s trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction. There could be only one reason that he has not wanted U.N. inspectors in Iraq, and that’s so that he can build weapons of mass destruction. We know that he tried twice before to acquire nuclear weapons. In 1981, when the Israelis pre-empted at Osyroc, he was trying to develop a nuclear weapon. In 1991, when our forces arrived in Iraq, they saw that, again, he was trying to acquire nuclear weapons. He is a very dangerous man. We have to deal with him on his own terms. We didn’t need September 11 to tell us that he’s a threat to American security.
Again, where is the lie?
Quote:
Vice President Cheney, Meet the Press, 2003:
"We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
Pres. Bush, State of the Union Address, 2003:
Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.
Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes.
Still, no lie.
Quote:
The "Mission Accomplished" speech from May 2003:
The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the "beginning of the end of America." By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed.
Vice President Cheney, July 2003:
"How could any responsible leader have ignored the Iraqi threat?"
************************************************** ****
And, finally, no lie!!
Quote:
Note what these statements do: They imply, without the speaker coming out and really saying anything concrete. The White House gets to have it both ways. Such truthiness.
The "alleged Iraqi purchases" of yellowcake uranium thing is a whole other convoluted mess.
I guess you can't call this stuff outright lying.
Perhaps a good term for it might be propaganda.
BTW--the speeches are available for viewing at the White House's website.
You're absolutely correct that they are not lies, yet many have called them liars. None of these lines are even deceptive. When these statements were made, intelligence organizations from 3 countries gave information to the White Houses of two administrations and 3 Senate Intelligence Committees that stated that Saddam either had or was seeking WMD. That's why the Congress and two administrations believed that Saddam possessed such weapons and would be willing to arm terrorists. And, with the quote I provided Cheney said emphatically that we have no evidence linking Saddam to 9/11.
The US government has the ability to manufacture half-truths and outright lies to support its actions. 'We the people' are simply not able to verify these things for ourselves and they know it. The media that reports these things cannot be trusted either (see below).
Personally, I believe our government (regardless of party) is comprised of mostly liars. The methods they use are beginning to crack, though, that's why Bush/Cheney & Co. are not worth trusting. Some lies can be proved, others require deeper analysis. One lie can be easily based on series of others and this requires some extra sleuthing. By putting distance between themselves and the original lie, they escape guilt. Modern technology is recording more and more of what our government does and the inconsistencies can no longer be ignored. Even without proven facts, I can't help but respond to the nagging suspicion and trust my gut instinct: they are liars.
I can't recall the exact year, but a group of Fox reporters sued Fox News in Florida over the content of their investigative report which was edited 81 times until it reached an "acceptable conclusion". The investigation dealt with hormones put into cows and what danger they pose to milk drinkers. The report never aired. The Supreme Court of Florida ruled that Fox (and by extension, all media) is under no obligation to tell the truth; rather, it is the responsibility of the public to determine whether or not it's true! I guess Fox's "We Report, You Decide" is the ONLY thing you can trust from them!
PS: I haven't read all 13 pages of this forum--I'm responding to amaznjohn's counterargument about our government's apparent lying.
The US government has the ability to manufacture half-truths and outright lies to support its actions. 'We the people' are simply not able to verify these things for ourselves and they know it. The media that reports these things cannot be trusted either (see below).
Personally, I believe our government (regardless of party) is comprised of mostly liars. The methods they use are beginning to crack, though, that's why Bush/Cheney & Co. are not worth trusting. Some lies can be proved, others require deeper analysis. One lie can be easily based on series of others and this requires some extra sleuthing. By putting distance between themselves and the original lie, they escape guilt. Modern technology is recording more and more of what our government does and the inconsistencies can no longer be ignored. Even without proven facts, I can't help but respond to the nagging suspicion and trust my gut instinct: they are liars.
I can't recall the exact year, but a group of Fox reporters sued Fox News in Florida over the content of their investigative report which was edited 81 times until it reached an "acceptable conclusion". The investigation dealt with hormones put into cows and what danger they pose to milk drinkers. The report never aired. The Supreme Court of Florida ruled that Fox (and by extension, all media) is under no obligation to tell the truth; rather, it is the responsibility of the public to determine whether or not it's true! I guess Fox's "We Report, You Decide" is the ONLY thing you can trust from them!
PS: I haven't read all 13 pages of this forum--I'm responding to amaznjohn's counterargument about our government's apparent lying.
I'm not so naive as to believe everything that our government tells us, or even half. I'm only pointing out that, in this instance, there is no evidence of lying by the Bush administration to get us into the Iraq war, in spite of people's "guts". Many want to bring criminal charges against Bush, impeach him, and even execute him for their "gut feelings".
And, with the quote I provided Cheney said emphatically that we have no evidence linking Saddam to 9/11.[/color]
Yep. We can not say (yet) that there was a lie, let alone a lie under oath, on Mr. Cheney's part.
He and others merely linked the two together many, many times. I personally hold Mr. Cheney responsible for many deaths.
Amaznjohn, if you think Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney were completely above board on this, and do not think that deception/hanky panky regarding a reason for invasion is involved, then I suppose we have nothing more to discuss on the matter. But thank you for responding.
"As we get farther away from 9/11, I believe there is a temptation to forget the urgency of the task that came to us that day, and the comprehensive approach that's required to protect this country against an enemy that moves and acts on multiple fronts," Cheney told the annual conference of the pro-Israel group, which interrupted his speech at least 27 times with applause.
"Iraq's relevance to the war on terror simply could not be more plain," Cheney said. [b]He said al Qaeda terrorists have made Iraq the central front in the U.S. war against terrorism.
The U.S. invasion, occupation and counterinsurgency campaign in Iraq over the past four years has claimed the lives of at least 3,193 U.S. soldiers, wounded 23,785 other GIs and cost taxpayers more than $400 billion.
Cheney spoke as part of the Bush administration's public relations offensive to win congressional support for the president's decision to send at least 26,100 additional U.S. combat and support troops to Iraq to try to stem bloodshed in Baghdad and Anbar province. The administration also seeks congressional approval of an additional $100 billion to finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Cheney has long contended that the U.S. invasion of Iraq four years ago this month was justified in part because of suspected ties between Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.
Link:SFGate
That there AmazingJohn, is amazing, cause he don't believe in God, but By God he believes in George Bush.
I think there is more evidence for intelligent design than there is for intelligent foreign policy.
Now John, you can say these aren't lies, but you are really splitting hairs. I gave you a whole list of Bush lies and I have no problem adding to it. I think you think it was not a lie if he was not lying down when he said it.
Yep. We can not say (yet) that there was a lie, let alone a lie under oath, on Mr. Cheney's part.
He and others merely linked the two together many, many times. I personally hold Mr. Cheney responsible for many deaths.
Amaznjohn, if you think Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney were completely above board on this, and do not think that deception/hanky panky regarding a reason for invasion is involved, then I suppose we have nothing more to discuss on the matter. But thank you for responding.
"As we get farther away from 9/11, I believe there is a temptation to forget the urgency of the task that came to us that day, and the comprehensive approach that's required to protect this country against an enemy that moves and acts on multiple fronts," Cheney told the annual conference of the pro-Israel group, which interrupted his speech at least 27 times with applause.
"Iraq's relevance to the war on terror simply could not be more plain," Cheney said. [b]He said al Qaeda terrorists have made Iraq the central front in the U.S. war against terrorism.
The U.S. invasion, occupation and counterinsurgency campaign in Iraq over the past four years has claimed the lives of at least 3,193 U.S. soldiers, wounded 23,785 other GIs and cost taxpayers more than $400 billion.
Cheney spoke as part of the Bush administration's public relations offensive to win congressional support for the president's decision to send at least 26,100 additional U.S. combat and support troops to Iraq to try to stem bloodshed in Baghdad and Anbar province. The administration also seeks congressional approval of an additional $100 billion to finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Cheney has long contended that the U.S. invasion of Iraq four years ago this month was justified in part because of suspected ties between Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.
Link:SFGate
I've provided evidence contrary to your belief. If you refuse to accept it as such, that is your perogative, but genuine debate and common decency demands that you provide evidence to support your claims of deception and/or hanky panky. These "examples' do not and the last statement is downright wrong, something you've been castigating the Bush admistration for.
Okay, Amaznjohn. If my "examples" do not satisfy your needs of proof of deviousness, so be it.I personally think they do: they are repeated statements linking 9/11 and Iraq.
Do I think that Mr. Cheney's line of reasoning warrants 4 years of bloodshed? I simply do not.
This is the kind of stuff that confounds people: link Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.
Responding to questions about the documents from lawmakers, Powell said, "It was provided in good faith to the inspectors and our agency received it in good faith, not participating ... in any way in any falsification activities."
"It was the information that we had. We provided it. If that information is inaccurate, fine," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press" last Sunday.
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Here you go Cil, as you asked.
