CIA Waterboarded Zubaydah 183 Times in One Month (border, dictators, wars)
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I concede that my use of "humane" is relative. To me, the world has the gloves off and we're the only people playing by any kind of rules. Let me ask you this: would any level of discomfort or pain be acceptable?
To some people, we are supposed to treat members of a foreign terrorist organization, whose goals are to murder as many innocent civilians as he can, the same as a grandmother in Toledo, caught shoplifting at K-Mart.
We did sign it. And according to the Bush administration we honored the letter of the agreement, if not the spirit, by conducting our waterboarding interrogations in territories not under American control, per se.
And when Clinton "lied" to the grand jury, he didn't actually lie per the definition of "sexual acts" provided to him by the prosecutors. He also honored the letter of the law, not the spirit.
You cannot be outraged by Clinton's act, self-serving as it was, but not outraged by Bush's act. Both are attempts to side-step the law. One by a man unable to control his sexual urges, but personal and isolated in nature. The other by an administration that was unable to control aggression urges, but involved an entire nation as complicit in the acts.
To some people, we are supposed to treat members of a foreign terrorist organization, whose goals are to murder as many innocent civilians as he can, the same as a grandmother in Toledo, caught shoplifting at K-Mart.
Oh, come on. You can surely muster a better argument than that.
Waterboarding dragged an entire nation over that line. You know the one, human decency, moral high road, integrity. Silly line.
If (and that's a big IF) we were dragged across any "line" it's much better to be drug across that "line" alive than dead don't you think? I love how people *** about moral high roads etc when talking about this but yet it's okay for all sorts of other "immoral" conduct.
Selective morality really cracks me up!
The problem with this logic is the "extreme cases where many lives are at stake". Are you fishing for information (183 times in one month-that's avid fishing)? In which case, how do you verify that information? With independent sources? If you had alternative sources of information, why did you have to torture someone to get them to share that information?
If 0bama releases the memo detailing the successful results of waterboarding, or other lesser techniques, then we will learn to what degree those techniques were useful or justified
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
These torture/information scenarios seem to be like jigsaw puzzles. Either we're just trying to acquire random pieces, or we're trying to acquire pieces that will help us complete the puzzle. And either way, it doesn't seem like torture is a quick way to acquire the pieces, so there goes the urgent argument. It also seems clear the the terrorist being interrogated isn't the ONLY source of information. Why torture someone, when you can get the information elsewhere?
I don't know the answer, maybe the other sources were only able to provide pieces of the puzzle, and the waterboarded terrorists had all the answers, and they believed an attack will occur in a few days or weeks?
If (and that's a big IF) we were dragged across any "line" it's much better to be drug across that "line" alive than dead don't you think? I love how people *** about moral high roads etc when talking about this but yet it's okay for all sorts of other "immoral" conduct.
Selective morality really cracks me up!
Selective morality really cracks me up!!!!
Like when you argue that it's okay to torture people in certain circumstances.
If 0bama releases the memo detailing the successful results of waterboarding, or other lesser techniques, then we will learn to what degree those techniques were useful or justified
I don't know the answer, maybe the other sources were only able to provide pieces of the puzzle, and the waterboarded terrorists had all the answers, and they believed an attack will occur in a few days or weeks?
If it's an imminent attack, then 183 waterboardings over a month doesn't give you pause?
If (and that's a big IF) we were dragged across any "line" it's much better to be drug across that "line" alive than dead don't you think? I love how people *** about moral high roads etc when talking about this but yet it's okay for all sorts of other "immoral" conduct.
Selective morality really cracks me up!
Also, I take it back. An entire nation wasn't dragged. Some people evidently happily charged over that line. Whoo-hoo! Gonna kick us some terrorist 'ss! Some of us are still kicking and screaming. Because we realized along the way that life isn't just a series of choices where you go along leaving the choices behind you. You live with the choices you make. You choose to torture someone, you become a torturer. You endorse torture on your behalf, you become a torturer. You approve torture, you are a torturer.
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