$9,000,000,000,000 in Debt, Which Generation Will Be Paying This (myth, dollar, education)

[beb0p]

Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie

When the rest of the world, finally gets fed with buying our debt, then we collapse and have to burn money to stay warm, like Germany. I think the criminals in congress should be forced to pay this money back, that they stole. They ****ed up the mess. So more spending is always congress's solution to everything. Nutjobs.

There's a better chance that pigs fly.
.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by njbiodude

Somalia has never had a good stable government which provided good education, functioning infrastructure, decent roads, public transportation, and healthcare for its people. It was always either a corrupt totalitarian regime interested in helping a few at the expense of the many, or a weak government incapable of providing order to the country.

Without a good stable society businesses will not relocate to the area. The police are corrupt and couldn't stop local warlords from extorting businesses, the roads are terrible and dangerous, and no management would ever in the right mind consider relocating to the area to run the business. Do you think they'll put their kids in Somalia's schools? They'd rather pay extra taxes and move their manufacturing plants to somewhere safe. Even India is much better in certain nicer urban areas.

Somalia is hardly a liberal dream. In fact, if anything it's a conservative nightmare of total deregulation and government indifference. A liberal's dream would be a place like Norway, which by the way has a wealthier and healthier citizenry than that of the United States.

uhmm...denmark and norway have high costs of living, ultra high taxes..high crime, and a poverty problem too

denmark is one of the wealthiest countries and has a high poverty rate, especially among imigrents:
17.3% of all Danish children, almost 200,000 in total, were touched by poverty .....that's higher than the USA

small population...... 4.9 million....smaller than NYC
WHITE RICH population (norway is the second most wealthy country in the word)
22% of their GDP is from OIL EXPORTS
very LIMITED immigration
very limited fast/fried food
norway has a MANDITORY MILITARY OBLIGATION (conscript) for 2 years for males....voluntary for females

price of gas in norway...over $8 a gallon


another key factor:.....The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil and Aker Solutions), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). The government controls approximately 40% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. Norway is a major shipping nation and has the world's 6th largest merchant fleet, with 1,412 Norwegian-owned merchant vessels. The country is richly endowed with natural resources including petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals. Large reserves of petroleum and natural gas were discovered in the 1960s, which led to a boom in the economy.


other key factors:
1) They don't manage a world empire and the military it takes to hold it (like the USA does).
2) They don't constantly give their citizen's money away to other countries (like the USA does).
3) Their politician's don't bribe their citizen's into voting for them by promising stupid (and expensive) programs if elected (like the USA does).
4) They drill off-shore like there is no tomorrow (yet the "greens" never mention this) and they tax heavily on it.
5) Their citizen's pay 53 cents per dollar in taxes.
6) They operate on a balanced budget principle that BOTH DEMOCRATS & REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO EMPLOY!






they made their money through ....CAPITALISM

norway is having a lot of financial problems over the last 4 years.......even The Lillehammer factory which has produced the famous Norwegian cheese slicer is bankrupt..... the organizers of Norway's biggest summer music festival have declared bankruptcy for the second time in 3 years.......Sea Launch Company, LLC bankrupt........Absolute Poker owners are bankrupt .......in 2009 more than 140 Norwegian building companies have submitted applications for bankruptcy. It is on 30 % more, than the year before.


oh and, norway ... ABOLISHED their wealth tax

[njbiodude]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

what drugs are you on...the debt nearly doubled under Clinton...just like bush...just like Obama


Clinton left office the debt was 5.87 trillion

It dropped towards the end of his presidency though. The GDP to debt ratio was nearly half of what it was today and was absolutely on the decline. In fact, Greenspan did freak when there was talk of making a balanced budget. Lots of business holders and foreign countries keep money in US treasury bonds. Keep in mind, it was still higher after world war II though and it was slowly brought down over time. It wasn't until after Reagan took presidency that it became a problem again after enacting tax cuts.

Their solution. Tax cuts for the rich (reaganonomics)! And then a war! And now everyone is freaking out about the debt. It's hard to take it seriously when the federal reserve would never even consider it being paid off anyway. We should definitely try bring it back down to maybe 40-50% of GDP. But this country will never, *ever* allow a balanced budget due to big money interests putting investments in "safe" bonds.

Also lots of other countries have a high debt to GDP ratios. It doesn't make us unique really. You can thank fractional reserve banking for the stupidity caused.

[njbiodude]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

uhmm...denmark and norway have high costs of living, ultra high taxes..high crime, and a poverty problem too

denmark is one of the wealthiest countries and has a high poverty rate, especially among imigrents:
17.3% of all Danish children, almost 200,000 in total, were touched by poverty .....that's higher than the USA.

Denmark isn't Norway. But actually the poverty rate in Denmark is 13.4% which is still lower than the USA. Poverty in NORWAY is virtually nonexistant.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

22% of their GDP is from OIL EXPORTS
very LIMITED immigration
very limited fast/fried food
norway has a MANDITORY MILITARY OBLIGATION (conscript) for 2 years for males....voluntary for females

We're not going to export 22% of our GDP from oil. Nonetheless there is plenty of things we can export--cars, coal (if anyone still wants it), computers etc. Our tech sector is strong than Norway's. Maybe we should learn something. You know secure our borders, limit immigration, improve infastructure. Having a mandatory draft for 18 year old men may not be a bad idea either.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

price of gas in norway...over $8 a gallon

. And their healthcare and school is free (or close to it). I'd rather pay $8 for gas and not pay for college or going to the doctor but that's just me. Also their public transit is far better than the USA so it's not necessary to drive everywhere in many cases. We do need better infastructure.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

another key factor:.....The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil and Aker Solutions), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). The government controls approximately 40% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. Norway is a major shipping nation and has the world's 6th largest merchant fleet, with 1,412 Norwegian-owned merchant vessels. The country is richly endowed with natural resources including petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals. Large reserves of petroleum and natural gas were discovered in the 1960s, which led to a boom in the economy.

We have plenty of exportable natural resources. Alloy metals, coal, even oil if the pipeline is developed.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

other key factors:
1) They don't manage a world empire and the military it takes to hold it (like the USA does).
2) They don't constantly give their citizen's money away to other countries (like the USA does).
3) Their politician's don't bribe their citizen's into voting for them by promising stupid (and expensive) programs if elected (like the USA does).
4) They drill off-shore like there is no tomorrow (yet the "greens" never mention this) and they tax heavily on it.
5) Their citizen's pay 53 cents per dollar in taxes.
6) They operate on a balanced budget principle that BOTH DEMOCRATS & REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO EMPLOY!

Sounds like they've struck a wonderful capatilism/socialism mix that allows capitalism to thrive without forming excessive boom/bust cycles and they've removed a lot of the things that the USA wastes money on and governmental corruption. We could stop being world policeman and work on improving ourselves. Without deductions American's also pay around 44 cents in taxes on the dollar and get minimal benefit.

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

norway is having a lot of financial problems over the last 4 years.......even The Lillehammer factory which has produced the famous Norwegian cheese slicer is bankrupt..... the organizers of Norway's biggest summer music festival have declared bankruptcy for the second time in 3 years.......Sea Launch Company, LLC bankrupt........Absolute Poker owners are bankrupt .......in 2009 more than 140 Norwegian building companies have submitted applications for bankruptcy. It is on 30 % more, than the year before.

oh and, norway ... ABOLISHED their wealth tax

.

That's meaningless. They're still richer than the USA per capita by quite a lot. How many businesses go bankrupt in the USA every year?

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by njbiodude

It dropped towards the end of his presidency though. The GDP to debt ratio was nearly half of what it was today and was absolutely on the decline. In fact, Greenspan did freak when there was talk of making a balanced budget. Lots of business holders and foreign countries keep money in US treasury bonds. Keep in mind, it was still higher after world war II though and it was slowly brought down over time. It wasn't until after Reagan took presidency that it became a problem again after enacting tax cuts.

Their solution. Tax cuts for the rich (reaganonomics)! And then a war! And now everyone is freaking out about the debt. It's hard to take it seriously when the federal reserve would never even consider it being paid off anyway. We should definitely try bring it back down to maybe 40-50% of GDP. But this country will never, *ever* allow a balanced budget due to big money interests putting investments in "safe" bonds.

Also lots of other countries have a high debt to GDP ratios. It doesn't make us unique really. You can thank fractional reserve banking for the stupidity caused.

the DEBT never dropped

and it was newt who pushed the balanced budget try

Clinton/newt never had any surpluses.....they had PROJECTED surpluses...but the country SPENT the surpluses...if you project a surplus, then spend more than that surplus... you have a deficit

budgets are best guesses...projections

ie you can say we EXPECT/PROJECT the revenue to be 2 trillion and EXPECT the spending to be 3 trillion...a 1 trillion PROJECTED deficit

or you can say we EXPECT/PROJECT the revenue to be 2 trillion and EXPECT the spending to be 2 trillion...a PROJECTED balanced budget

ie you can say we EXPECT/PROJECT the revenue to be 2.1 trillion and EXPECT the spending to be 1.9 trillion...a 200 billion PROJECTED surplus

and the end of the year all the pluses and minuses are counted.... you can have

ie you can say we EXPECT/PROJECT the revenue to be 2 trillion and the spending to be 3 trillion...a 1 trillion PROJECTED deficit...but revenue rose to 2.2 trillion and we only spent 2.8 trillion...still a deficit but instead of a 1 trillion deficit, now its a 600 billion deficit


you can project a surplus..and have emergencies show up (ie the Mississippi valley flooding...911... etc) and completely blow the surplus to where it becomes a deficit



sorry, but the PROJECTED surpluses of Clinton/newt never happened...the debt never got paid, and the debt in fact INCREASED


the simple fact is if there had been a surplus, then the debt would have gone down...it didn't


was the BUDGET balanced.....yes

was there a PROJECTED SURPLUS.....yes

was there an actual surplus , once all in's and out's were counted.....NO

here is the 4 years that they claim had a surplus
Fiscal
Year........ YearEnding.... ..National Debt........Annual budget Deficit

FY1998..... 09/30/1998.... $5.526193 trillion...... $113.05 billion
FY1999..... 09/30/1999.... $5.656270 trillion...... $130.08 billion
FY2000..... 09/29/2000.... $5.674178 trillion...... $17.91 billion
FY2001..... 09/28/2001.... $5.877463 trillion...... $133.29 billion


so endeth the myth of the Clinton surplus

a spent projected surplus is not a surplus


============

why do you guys continue a lie of 'tax cuts for the rich"

the 'bush' tax cuts/credit were mostly for the poor and middleclass


1. the 'bush' tax cuts/credits were not for the rich...they were mostly for the poor and middleclass...letting them expire will HURT the already hurting poor and middleclass

2.the 01/03 (aka "bush' ) tax cuts/credits were for EVERYONE.. with the poor and middleclass getting the biggest part of the cuts/credits.....\prior to the 'bush' tax cuts there was not a 10% bracket..it was 15%....the rich was cut from 39% to 35%

3. but the biggest part of the cuts/credits was not the tax rates ....... but the CREDITS ( child care credit, child credit, energy efficiency credit, retirement 401k credit, education tuition credit, and the health costs credit) which the "rich" those households over 180k could NOT take

the only cut the "rich' got solely was their rate dropped from 39 to 35...a 4 point drop

EVERYONE got the capitol gains cut

the POOR got a 5 point drop from 15% down to 10%

and EVERYONE under 180k got the credits...(energy credit, tuition credit, child credit, child care credit, retirement(401k) credit, and health care cost credit)....the 'rich' were not allowed those credits as they prorated down on incomes over 180k

the 01/03 cuts and credits benefited the poor and the middleclass much more



to even say 'tax cuts for the rich'...is a LIE

[cmptrwlt]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

uhmm...denmark and norway have high costs of living, ultra high taxes..high crime, and a poverty problem too

denmark is one of the wealthiest countries and has a high poverty rate, especially among imigrents:
17.3% of all Danish children, almost 200,000 in total, were touched by poverty .....that's higher than the USA

small population...... 4.9 million....smaller than NYC
WHITE RICH population (norway is the second most wealthy country in the word)
22% of their GDP is from OIL EXPORTS
very LIMITED immigration
very limited fast/fried food
norway has a MANDITORY MILITARY OBLIGATION (conscript) for 2 years for males....voluntary for females

price of gas in norway...over $8 a gallon


another key factor:.....The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil and Aker Solutions), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). The government controls approximately 40% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. Norway is a major shipping nation and has the world's 6th largest merchant fleet, with 1,412 Norwegian-owned merchant vessels. The country is richly endowed with natural resources including petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals. Large reserves of petroleum and natural gas were discovered in the 1960s, which led to a boom in the economy.


other key factors:
1) They don't manage a world empire and the military it takes to hold it (like the USA does).
2) They don't constantly give their citizen's money away to other countries (like the USA does).
3) Their politician's don't bribe their citizen's into voting for them by promising stupid (and expensive) programs if elected (like the USA does).
4) They drill off-shore like there is no tomorrow (yet the "greens" never mention this) and they tax heavily on it.
5) Their citizen's pay 53 cents per dollar in taxes.
6) They operate on a balanced budget principle that BOTH DEMOCRATS & REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO EMPLOY!

they made their money through ....CAPITALISM

norway is having a lot of financial problems over the last 4 years.......even The Lillehammer factory which has produced the famous Norwegian cheese slicer is bankrupt..... the organizers of Norway's biggest summer music festival have declared bankruptcy for the second time in 3 years.......Sea Launch Company, LLC bankrupt........Absolute Poker owners are bankrupt .......in 2009 more than 140 Norwegian building companies have submitted applications for bankruptcy. It is on 30 % more, than the year before.


oh and, norway ... ABOLISHED their wealth tax

Is this meant to be a joke? Please do not write about stuff you know little or nothing about.
I bet its bankruptcy only affected 30-40 people or so. The Statoil, Telenor, Yara, DNB, NorgesGruppen, Reitangruppen, Akers Solutions, Orkla and others are all economic cornerstones. Companies go bankrupt all the time. It is usually a good reason for it.

[Opin_Yunated]

People still arguing over numbers on a computer that mean nothing. LOL.

[Opin_Yunated]

Originally Posted by GregW

This DEBT exists to provide the international financial businesses with a supposedly secure place to keep their money. They do not want to have this debt ever paid off as they would then have to lend the money at much greater risk to their fellow speculators, bankers and other high level thieves.

Government Debt is the biggest form of Government Welfare in existence. The financiers are completely dependent on this handout and will never let it stop.

Debt is money; the running count of T-security deposits. The only way to pay back Government debt is to destroy all money through taxation.

I don't understand why people don't understand how simple this is.

[ToddATX]

If you are worried about the debt, don't elect republicans. Reagan/Bush I/Dubya EXPLODED the national defecit. The last Republican to ballance the budget was Ike. Meanwhile, Clinton not only reduced the deficit, he turned it into a surplus, and Obama took the astronomical deficit handed to him by Dubya and has more than cut it in half ...

[reed067]

Originally Posted by Tank1906

Typical of us Americans to blame EVERYTHING on politicians. It was us that thought we could charge our way to prosperity. Our collective greed created this debt.

It was AMERCIANS who put those people into office. How can you not blame them? You all keep voting these idiots in & then turn on the other party when things go wrong! Haven't ANY of you learned that it's NOT working??