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People from he north are usually smart enough to realize when someone is trying to get a rise out of them for their own amusement. You guys really gave me a great laugh and some great material for my blog.
Hmmm, rather like what you have done here? Whacking a hornets nest with a stick? You certainly got a rise out of folks, and have used that to continue an ignorant and bigoted rant against southerners. I'm not a southerner, I'm a westerner, but I share more in common with folks in the south than I do in the northeast. Folks with views like your anyway. My grandparents , on both sides, were from the south though. I have to take issue with them being placed in the standing you hold to. You scream out words like bigotry, predjudice,racism,and ignorance as if these things are unique among southerners. You, yourself, provide a prime example of what these things are in the north. Do you claim to speak for all people above the Mason/Dixon and northeast of the rockies? Pretty gutsy and arrogant beyond belief. For someone who claims such lofty intelligence and moral standard, you display a remarkable lack of these attributes in your writing. Could you justify your rants with any actual facts, or is your skewed and bigoted opinion all you have? Your shaking a wide loop in your views of southern people, dragging the wrong brands to your fire, and trying to swap them out with a running iron if you get my meaning. Or is the metaphore to colloquial for your sensibilities?
Hmmm, rather like what you have done here? Whacking a hornets nest with a stick? You certainly got a rise out of folks, and have used that to continue an ignorant and bigoted rant against southerners. I'm not a southerner, I'm a westerner, but I share more in common with folks in the south than I do in the northeast. Folks with views like your anyway. My grandparents , on both sides, were from the south though. I have to take issue with them being placed in the standing you hold to. You scream out words like bigotry, predjudice,racism,and ignorance as if these things are unique among southerners. You, yourself, provide a prime example of what these things are in the north. Do you claim to speak for all people above the Mason/Dixon and northeast of the rockies? Pretty gutsy and arrogant beyond belief.
Nope. But thanks for assuming that I do and calling me arrogant for it.
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For someone who claims such lofty intelligence and moral standard, you display a remarkable lack of these attributes in your writing. Could you justify your rants with any actual facts, or is your skewed and bigoted opinion all you have? Your shaking a wide loop in your views of southern people, dragging the wrong brands to your fire, and trying to swap them out with a running iron if you get my meaning. Or is the metaphore to colloquial for your sensibilities?
I don't claim anything.
I just wanted to ask an honest question about why people do not get upset about symbols that are commonly associated with slavery and racism and I get put down. And here I thought the internet was the last place left for a civil conversation.
I suggest you go watch Roots, and not just the cool part with OJ.
Even northers schools? We have much better schools and a smarter population.
If your posts here are an indication of the current status of "northers" schools, I have to call you a liar!
In any case if my tax dollars paid for your education, I want a refund.
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Originally Posted by B-rad69
I just wanted to ask an honest question about why people do not get upset about symbols that are commonly associated with slavery and racism and I get put down.
Why should we?
The British flag should per the same standards cause everyone to be upset, considering it was a symbol of tyranny, slavery, and oppression for a couple hundred years. What about traditional symbols from the old Spanish empire that were worn by the same individuals responsible for the genocide of several different civilizations in South America? Are you equally offended by symbols from the Prussian empire, or perhaps the Norwegian flag, since the Nazi's hijacked both for their own insignia? The Swastika has been a Hindu sign of good luck for thousands of years. Do you also believe it should be erased and hidden?
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Originally Posted by B-rad69
And here I thought the internet was the last place left for a civil conversation.
LOL! Now that is rich..
Last edited by Frankie117; 09-13-2009 at 10:27 PM..
But why dwell on the negative parts of your history?
I remember a college course I took (History of Western Civilization) where the professor gave the British side of the American Revolution. And it opened my eyes to a simple fact. To wit:
History is made by imperfect human beings and. like symbols, can be interpretted different ways by different people. To some Native-Americans, the United States Flag might be "offensive", representing broken treaties and land-stealing. To some hispanics, the Alamo might be regarded not as the "Cradle of Texas Liberty", but the beginnings of a war of aggression by American settlers...
Point is, you seem to adopt a tone that everyone who doesn't see it your way is lacking in racial sensitivity and wants to revive the Old Confederacy and bring back slavery. That's fine if you really feel that way, but by damn and high cotton, blunt truth is, you don't even defend your own positions very well. You point out the sinners (as you see them), but conveniently fail to identify the saints.
The winners write the history, but one advantage Southerners have is that we have grown up reading the Northern version of the War. However, few outside the South (and unfortunately, many Southerners as well) truly know the Southern side of it. So when presented with facts about the Northern slave trade or racist laws in northern states, they are taken aback by it. That is the reason many of us post links concerning it.
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It strikes me as a odd to raise a flag for a "county" that does not exist.
It strikes me as odd so many take it that way. Or so many get on a high-horse and presume to lecture Southerners on just what and how we should feel or think.
When Gen. Lee gave his farewell address to his army -- and he continued to do this throughout the rest of his life -- he said, in effect, the issue has been settled. We fought the good fight, but the odds against us were too great. It is now our duty to go home and become good citizens of a reunited country.
And they did just that. It has been Southerners who have always been disproportionately represented in our nations armed forces. The South today is the most traditionally patriotic region of the country. And the one where both blacks and whites express the most optomism on race-relations.
I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. I despise the use of the Confederate Battle Flag when used by the KKK or Nazi skinheads. I dare say the overwhelming majority of my fellow Southerners feel that same way.
The Battle Flag hangs proudly in my den (along with the Texas and American Flags), and I have a bumper sticker on my vehicle which features it along with the words: Southern By the Grace of God.
That is the way I feel about it all. I am not pledging allegience to the Confederate States of America. I'm a Texan, Southerner, and citizen of the United States of America. And I don't think of slavery or race issues when it concerns that banner. It is simply pride in my Southern roots and heritage and in the fighting spirits of my Confederate ancestors (none of whom owned slaves). And I'll stand up for it 'til Hell freezes over...
My mother had a sister who lived in DC. My dad had four uncles who lived in PA and NJ. Every summer, we would go visit them. The first time I saw what was referred to as a "slum" in the NE, I was not only frightened b/c it looked like a bombed out area such as I had seen in WWII movies, I couldn't believe folks were relegated to actually LIVING in such conditions.
I may have been only five, but I knew what I saw was simply WRONG.
I grew up with those images in my mind. You see, here in NC, I had never seen a huge area full of run down tenements where only black folks lived. I never understood how it could be that the Union supposedly fought the South over the issue of slavery, and then when they freed the slaves, they didn't help them get on their feet and provide decent housing, education and jobs for them.
Our monuments here in NC may be offensive to you since you see them as the vestiges of a war fought over slavery. But to a Southerner, the contemporary and ongoing grinding poverty and segregation in inner cities all over this country are a legacy of slavery that seem more heinous than any stone or metal monument. I never understood the hypocrisy out of the mouths of citizens from the NE who disparaged the South yet did nothing to really help the slaves they supposedly freed - and then allowed to live in squalor - or work for pennies in sweat shops.
The monuments here in NC are fixed in a period of time that has long past. The injustices that continue to occur in slums, public housing and bombed out tenements have been a fixture in the NE for over a century- and are living monuments to hypocrisy.
But why dwell on the negative parts of your history? It strikes me as a odd to raise a flag for a "county" that does not exist.
You are really planning on becoming a teacher? Hmmm.....
First of all, do you think the monuments to lost seaman in New England are "dwelling on the negative"? I think most New Englanders would tell you differently. The seamen who've lost their lives in various sea disasters don't merit being cast aside and forgotten because they were on the "losing" side. But you think that the soldiers who died in the Civil War fighting for the South deserve to be forgotten because they were on the "losing" side.
You have been taught, evidently, that the Civil War was a war between moral, upstanding Northerners who wanted to free a people who were enslaved by immoral, evil Southerners. I didn't realize that there were still pockets of schools in the North teaching the Civil War as a morality lesson. Like any morality lesson, the truth has been displaced for the sake of making the moral of the story clear and unambiguous.
Unfortunately, wars are never clear and unambiguous. Wars are expensive, costly endeavors. If you hope one day to become a teacher, you need to develop an appreciation for the complexity of history. You may not want or need to teach third-graders about those complexities. But by time someone is attending college, they should at the very least be aware that seminal events in history, like the Civil War, are not morality lessons.
Slavery was a divisive issue of the day. But not just because enslaving another human being is a devaluation of all human beings. Slavery wasn't a new idea, most of us, if we could go back far enough in history, would find some ancestor that had been enslaved. In the context of 19th century America, and even before that, slavery was as much an issue because of economic reasons as it was for moral reasons. Case in point, many of the Northern states passed laws to free slaves, but once they were freed, they were persona non grata in the state. From making it illegal for them to own property or businesses, to outright banning black people from moving into the state, evidently it wasn't just immoral to own slaves, it was also immoral to have to compete with black people for jobs or to have to live near black people.
States' rights were also a divisive issue of the day. A very good argument could be made that the most influential result of the Civil War was not the end of slavery, but rather, the decisive and permanent consolidation of power within the federal government. Prior to the Civil War, there was an ongoing debate and struggle between the federal government and the state governments. Indeed, most of the early divisions between political parties existed on the basis of whether political candidates were pro-federalist, or pro-states. Thomas Jefferson was very anti-federalist, and yet, to his own dismay, much of the impact of his administration was to build up the strength of the federal government.
In today's world, with federal power clearly established, it's hard to comprehend the world before the Civil War. As regionalist as we are today, much of the identification with regions has to do with sports. But in a world without mass communication, in a world without mass distribution, regionalism grew from the very real cultural difference of an area. People identified with their regions in a much more visceral way than today. People travelled less, and when they did, they took their regions with them, in their clothes, their accents, even in their names and religious beliefs.
I think you should set aside your pre-conceived notions of the South and its history, and learn about it with an open mind. And I think you should set aside your pre-conceived notions of the North, as well. Lincoln wasn't elected into office because he was going to free the slaves. He had no intention of doing that. And the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves in Northern States, they weren't freed until later. And segregation wasn't just a Southern institution. Blacks were treated badly in every part of this country, not just in the South.
the flag of the kkk is the american flag . not the confederate flag . the confederate flag wasn't used by them until 1960-1965. the 100yr anniversary of the civil war .why they still use it today not sure . the nazi 's i have no idea why they use it at all.
DC: as balanced and factual a post as I have ever seen on this issue. Thank you. Would rep you but I can't right now.
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