Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There should be distrust and at least a lingering bitterness so long as it doesn't spillover into anything counterproductive.
Then you say we should bring it out and address it, but call Sharpton an agitator for doing just that. See what i mean?
Sharpton is not simply trying to have a dialog about what causes prejudice, and what we need to do to address it. He is basically calling for the head of Zimmerman. While making Martin out to be the victim of white-oppression. And even worse, the facts of the case havn't even come out, so he is really talking out of his ass.
The Trayvon-Martin case was basically ignored by the media for the first month, and the police weren't ignoring it, they just have to go through a process(and are still going through that process). The media picked it up, and have turned it into a case of white racism. Now all the sudden, you are seeing a sharp increase in hate crimes by both whites and blacks across the country. Even our president has gotten involved, when he really needed to just keep out of it. And you don't see how Sharpton might possibly be agitating this situation and making it worse?
Quote:
Can't win. Which is why it's a waste of time. I mean, Anger, bitterness and distrust has as much to do with white people's 32% as it does with black people's 72%....but only the blacks are bitter, right?
I'm not going to say that whites don't also have bitterness and distrust. I'm sure whites are also angry, and hostile. In fact, I know plenty of them that feel that way. I only addressed blacks in this regard, because this topic was about African-Americans and slavery. And what I said was that, their anger and bitterness isn't really about slavery, I said, it was related to general frustrations with their situations in life, they are basically looking for someone to blame. Whether it is whites or hispanics or asians or the rich or the police or the legal system or whatever.
And the same happens for whites. If we look at the racist whites, they tend to be poor whites, not rich whites. These whites are also frustrated with their situations, and are looking for someone to blame. In Nazi Germany, the poorer Germans blamed the Jews.
What I'm saying is, it isn't healthy for people to be running around blaming others. It just divides us, and doesn't address the problems. If you continue down the road of turning a group of people into evil-oppressors, the result will undoubtedly be violence. And I feel like Al Shapton is at least partially responsible for the recent spat of racial violence across this country. How are his actions remotely constructive?
Sharpton is not simply trying to have a dialog about what causes prejudice, and what we need to do to address it. He is basically calling for the head of Zimmerman. While making Martin out to be the victim of white-oppression. And even worse, the facts of the case havn't even come out, so he is really talking out of his ass.
The Trayvon-Martin case was basically ignored by the media for the first month, and the police weren't ignoring it, they just have to go through a process(and are still going through that process). The media picked it up, and have turned it into a case of white racism. Now all the sudden, you are seeing a sharp increase in hate crimes by both whites and blacks across the country. Even our president has gotten involved, when he really needed to just keep out of it. And you don't see how Sharpton might possibly be agitating this situation and making it worse?
I'm not going to say that whites don't also have bitterness and distrust. I'm sure whites are also angry, and hostile. In fact, I know plenty of them that feel that way. I only addressed blacks in this regard, because this topic was about African-Americans and slavery. And what I said was that, their anger and bitterness isn't really about slavery, I said, it was related to general frustrations with their situations in life, they are basically looking for someone to blame. Whether it is whites or hispanics or asians or the rich or the police or the legal system or whatever.
And the same happens for whites. If we look at the racist whites, they tend to be poor whites, not rich whites. These whites are also frustrated with their situations, and are looking for someone to blame. In Nazi Germany, the poorer Germans blamed the Jews.
What I'm saying is, it isn't healthy for people to be running around blaming others. It just divides us, and doesn't address the problems. If you continue down the road of turning a group of people into evil-oppressors, the result will undoubtedly be violence. And I feel like Al Shapton is at least partially responsible for the recent spat of racial violence across this country. How are his actions remotely constructive?
Your read on Sharpton is different than mine. Moreover, you're assuming that i'm consumed with this case, and i'm really not. In fact, beyond the first few days, i haven't even kept up with it anymore. I'm too busy having an actual life.
As for your idea that division causes violence, then so be it. It is what it is. Was division the reason for Zimmerman killing Martin? Nope. No one is saying that all white people are evil oppressors. That's you attempting to exalt yourself and white people in general as this big time group that is powerful and worthy enough for another group (in this case blacks) to be obsessed with them as a group, and therefore are consumed with jealousy and hate for them. Perpetual flattery. No one is thinking about you dude....trust me. You're invisible. Fact is, it's the opposite. Look at the threads around here. See any blacks making threads about hating white people, slavery, division, or about how white folks are oppressors? Hell no you don't! If you do, show them to me. It's white folks that are obsessed with blacks....call it what it is.
I mean, how in the hell would you know what black folks talk about amongst ourselves? Slavery? You must be kidding.
Whites are just as bitter and resentful on average as blacks....probably a lot more. And it aint just the poor whites, but especially the middle class.
Not that i care. As long as they don't bother me personally, they're free to be as bitter as they want. Makes me no difference one way or another.
As for your idea that division causes violence, then so be it. It is what it is. Was division the reason for Zimmerman killing Martin? Nope. No one is saying that all white people are evil oppressors. That's you attempting to exalt yourself and white people in general as this big time group that is powerful and worthy enough for another group (in this case blacks) to be obsessed with them as a group, and therefore are consumed with jealousy and hate for them.
I never said that anyone is arguing that "all white people are evil oppressors". But they are most certainly arguing that there is white bias going on. And they believe that that white bias, both caused the death of Trayvon, and also allowed Zimmerman to get away with it. Basically, they have turned Trayvon into a victim, and Zimmerman into an aggressor, who is supported by a biased police force.
And what that does psychologically is basically try to make a statement that whites or society is in a conspiracy against black people. That blacks aren't treated fairly by whites, and so therefore you cannot trust whites, because they will kill you.
Moreover, since people like Sharpton have already convicted Zimmerman in their mind, then if Zimmerman is not arrested, him and his followers will believe that the system is unjust. And they see the system being controlled by white men, and that blacks cannot be treated fairly in this country. You already have plenty of young unemployed and frustrated black men across the country, who are already angry at the system and also a lot of times at the whites they perceive as running the system. And it doesn't take much of a push before people start taking out their frustration in the form of violence, looting, rioting, etc.
You should really pay more attention to the recent racial violence that is happening across the country, and pay attention to what is going on in Sanford with neo-nazi groups there and the black panthers. If you can't see the dangerous turn this case has taken because of people like Sharpton and others, you're blind.
I never said that anyone is arguing that "all white people are evil oppressors". But they are most certainly arguing that there is white bias going on. And they believe that that white bias, both caused the death of Trayvon, and also allowed Zimmerman to get away with it. Basically, they have turned Trayvon into a victim, and Zimmerman into an aggressor, who is supported by a biased police force.
And what that does psychologically is basically try to make a statement that whites or society is in a conspiracy against black people. That blacks aren't treated fairly by whites, and so therefore you cannot trust whites, because they will kill you.
Moreover, since people like Sharpton have already convicted Zimmerman in their mind, then if Zimmerman is not arrested, him and his followers will believe that the system is unjust. And they see the system being controlled by white men, and that blacks cannot be treated fairly in this country. You already have plenty of young unemployed and frustrated black men across the country, who are already angry at the system and also a lot of times at the whites they perceive as running the system. And it doesn't take much of a push before people start taking out their frustration in the form of violence, looting, rioting, etc.
You should really pay more attention to the recent racial violence that is happening across the country, and pay attention to what is going on in Sanford with neo-nanotezi groups there and the black panthers. If you can't see the dangerous turn this case has taken because of people like Sharpton and others, you're blind.
I can tell you've talked to/been around a lot of black throughout your life. Note: No white person will ever be able to highlight black problems to a black person. Too embarrasing for us. Bill Cosby even got roasted for this.
The fact that someone from the D will not admit this is beyond me. It is obvious that a large percentage of blacks distrust and simply do not like whites, plus attribute most of their hardships to whites. I am not afraid to admit this simple fact.
Your read on Sharpton is different than mine. Moreover, you're assuming that i'm consumed with this case, and i'm really not. In fact, beyond the first few days, i haven't even kept up with it anymore. I'm too busy having an actual life.
As for your idea that division causes violence, then so be it. It is what it is. Was division the reason for Zimmerman killing Martin? Nope. No one is saying that all white people are evil oppressors. That's you attempting to exalt yourself and white people in general as this big time group that is powerful and worthy enough for another group (in this case blacks) to be obsessed with them as a group, and therefore are consumed with jealousy and hate for them. Perpetual flattery. No one is thinking about you dude....trust me. You're invisible. Fact is, it's the opposite. Look at the threads around here. See any blacks making threads about hating white people, slavery, division, or about how white folks are oppressors? Hell no you don't! If you do, show them to me. It's white folks that are obsessed with blacks....call it what it is.
I mean, how in the hell would you know what black folks talk about amongst ourselves? Slavery? You must be kidding.
Whites are just as bitter and resentful on average as blacks....probably a lot more. And it aint just the poor whites, but especially the middle class.
Not that i care. As long as they don't bother me personally, they're free to be as bitter as they want. Makes me no difference one way or another.
So at black get togethers when politics are bought up noone says anything about white people? Noone has ever told you that a white man is scared of black man with a degree or excercises their ability to vote? you can find 5 percenters shouthing this stuff in Detroit, im sure. Stop being insecure bro, all races have problems.
There is no way you are from/ have been in culturally black areas and honestly deny this stuff. Note: white people know
Let me get this straight. People who were NEVER slaves actually have an issue with people that were NEVER slave owners. Can someone please tell me how that works because it really is ridiculous. How can someone that NEVER experienced something forgive someone that NEVER perpetrated something?
But one of those groups betrayed their country and fought the United States to provide for the continuation of slavery
And what I said was that, their anger and bitterness isn't really about slavery, I said, it was related to general frustrations with their situations in life, they are basically looking for someone to blame. Whether it is whites or hispanics or asians or the rich or the police or the legal system or whatever.
That is my observation as well.
Observing...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
And the same happens for whites. If we look at the racist whites, they tend to be poor whites, not rich whites. These whites are also frustrated with their situations, and are looking for someone to blame. In Nazi Germany, the poorer Germans blamed the Jews.
What I'm saying is, it isn't healthy for people to be running around blaming others. It just divides us, and doesn't address the problems. If you continue down the road of turning a group of people into evil-oppressors, the result will undoubtedly be violence. And I feel like Al Shapton is at least partially responsible for the recent spat of racial violence across this country. How are his actions remotely constructive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorblade
Another and just as valid question is should African Americans forgive Africa for slavery? Blacks were not kidnapped from the shores of West Africa and the local tribes were not strong armed into selling millions of slaves. There own people sold them out, literally, and that's a fact.
Of course it is a fact.
One of the reasons I mentioned that in my earlier post was due precisely to the double-standard that is applied. Whites are "evil" for having Black slaves, so then what do you call Blacks who own Black saves?
Those with power enslave those who have less power. That has always been the situation throughout history. Race and color had nothing to do with it.
Some of you might want to read through the edicts issued by Emperor Constantine between 311 and 325. One of those edicts expressly bans Jews from owning Christian slaves.
Some of Truths that need to be taught in all schools in the US starting in kindergarten are:
1] Whites had White Slaves
2] The Pope had White Slaves
3] Native Americans (snicker) had Native Americans (snicker) as Slaves
4] African Whites had Whites and Blacks as Slaves
5] African Blacks had Whites and Blacks as Slaves
6] Black Americans owned plantations in the US and those Black American plantation owners had Black Slaves
Validly...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
Sad thing is that for people who did not ever own a slave, who did not practice Jim Crow, and have done their best to be fair get slammed with this 'you owe me' attitude and a hostility they don't deserve and it *drives* the wedge further.
Yes, it most absolutely does.
After the Riots in Cincinnati, the Cincinnati Enquirer hosted and sponsored discussion groups in 20 different communities in the Cincinnati area in an attempt to bridge the gap and foster better community and race relations.
The talks totally collapsed in every single location after a few weeks.
There was an op-ed piece in the Cincinnati Enquirer about it, and it basically said what I've always maintained and that is unless and until Blacks quit the stupid "racism" nonsense there will never be any real progress.
I attended only a couple of meetings at the Clifton location with professors, graduate students and undergraduate students from UC and Xavier, and from business owners and residents in the Clifton area, and that included a diverse group of White Americans, Indians (from India), a variety of Asians, Hispanics and also real Africans.
For someone to sit there and call me a "racist" when I have never committed a racist act is intolerable, and I wasn't the only one who thought so. I mean when people are willing to give up their time to help Blacks and Blacks are going to curse and spit at them and unjustly and unfairly call them racists when they are not is not a good way to win friends and influence enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
I'm not felling guilty over something which took place a century and a half ago, and don't much like the attitude of those who think I should. Has zippo to do with race.
Same here, but I have noted that attitude comes almost exclusively from low rent Blacks. I have rarely ever had Middle Class or well educated Blacks come off at me that way. They have always been friendly, quite open and often very frank in their discussions with me.
Guiltless...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1
When a white skinned person left there masters they were totally excepted by the white comunity No Questions asked. Blacks had patiently waited 100 yrs...
I don't suppose you see that as a problem.
When you are the new kid on the block, or when you are the minority, you need to be doing it bigger and better than the other guy.
Sitting around waiting "patiently" for White America to do something was a huge mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1
BIG Difference all cause of the color of their skin!
Oh, yeah?
I can go anywhere in Cincinnati and show you the racism committed by Black Americans against Black Africans.
I saw it every single day I was on campus at UC. The Black Student Union wouldn't even let Black Africans join. I'd often go to Tangeman Center for lunch and I would also see a Black man or woman sitting by themselves at a table surrounded by Blacks and I can guarantee they were an African.
I enjoyed lunching with Africans. It was so nice talking to someone of color who didn't have a negative attitude.
I also enjoyed working with Black Africans. My line leaders were all from Senegal and Ghana. Why? Uh, well, they could speak, read and write English and the Black Americans couldn't, so that's why the Black Africans were line leaders.
You don't see a problem with that?
What are the Reverends (snicker) Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton doing about illiteracy in the Black Communities?
Nothing. It doesn't score any Media Points.
You don't see a problem with that?
The fastest way to end an interview with Jesse Jackson is to ask about Black-on-Black Slavery taking place right now this minute in a number of African countries.
You don't see a problem with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1
Even today there are still whites that hate blacks! & Slavery been over for what 150 yrs!
Yeah? So, what? I'm "White" and I hate green-teeth NASCAR-lovin' Rednecks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1
Question should be is When will Whites stop treating them as underdogs!
Then they should stop playing the part of underdogs.
Why do Blacks continue to let Democrats treat them as 2nd Class citizens?
Questioning...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
It needs to be recognized, first, both that slavery was not a uniquely American institution, and that the debate over the slave trade goes back well before even Revfolutionary times. Political journals, many of them British, regarding the concern over slavery can be found at most major libraries.
Good luck with that.
Getting Blacks to even admit that they were Slaves in Africa before they were sold to Whites is damn near impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
And that the last organized governments to officially outlaw slavery were certain Muslim emirates in the Arabian and Persian Gulf, in the late Nineteenth Century (Source, Alan Moorherad The Whte Nile).
That is not entirely true.
The Ottoman Empire controlled those areas and slavery was outlawed by the Tanzimat Reforms circa 1878. It was the Ottoman Empire that outlawed slavery, not the Emirates.
I would also mention that the Ottoman Empire was the first to grant woman's suffrage.
And I would also mention that the Ottoman Empires was among the first to allow women to work outside the home in jobs other than nursing and education.
The last public execution in the Ottoman Empire for the crime of abusing a slave took place in 1872.
If I am not mistaken the criminal slave abuser was an Albanian. The slave laws required that slaves live under your roof, not a in a shack outside on the Back-40.
I don't recall which Persian king, but upon hearing reports of abusive treatment toward slaves (banned by the Qo'ran), two cities were invaded and the Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered (except the children) and all of the slaves were freed.
It should be understood that slavery under Muslim law was not the same as US-style chattel slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
And that efforts to re-institute de facto slavery continue to be uncovered in places like Darfur to this day.
Black-on-Black slavery has been going on in Africa for quite some time, decades at least. Like I said, the fastest way to end an interview with the Reverend (snicker) Jesse Jackson is to ask him a question on Black-on-Black slavery in Africa (he is a Black-on-Black slavery "denier" -- he pretends it never happened and that it is not happening now).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
The immorality did not start with white people, and the calls for apologies and reparations are just the usual caterwauling, by the usual supects over there in LeftyLand.
That's right. Again, history shows us that the powerful and the wealthy have always attempted to enslave by one means or another those who have no power and wealth.
Those people who refuse to recognize that are setting themselves up for an awfully hard fall.
Apologetically...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas
Nope, I was simply showing you and others that racists are alive and well here...
What racists?
Racism is an act of violence perpetrated against an individual or group solely on the basis of their race or ethnicity.
That is the definition of "racism" and the fact that you drank the Jackson/Sharpton/NAACP Kool-Aid that erroneously redefines racism into a nebulous vague term is not relevant.
If I do not like a Black person, that is not racism, nor is it bigotry or prejudice or bias.
If I do not like a Black person due to the fact that they are Black, that is still not racism, but it is prejudicial or biased.
If I refuse to accommodate said Black person for interview, hiring, promotion, pay, or housing or serve them in a business environment, that is still not racism, but it is bigotry.
If I cause physical harm or damage said Black person's property on the basis of their race, that is racism.
I'm glad we got that straightened out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas
... which goes back to the original question and why some consider the issue of slavery and racial attitudes in America to still be very relevant.
The origin of Jim Crow laws was economic, not racial.
I would suggest you go peruse US Census records for counties in the Deep South.
The occupation of the overwhelming number of Whites was....
...drum-roll please...
....share-cropper.
As a share-cropper, you work someone's land for a percentage of the crop which you then trade for things you need or sell for cash to buy the things you cannot get through trade. Generally about 8%-12% was your take.
Initially, you're competing against slaves, and while that is harmful to you, it sort of works its way out, but then you now have all of these newly freed slaves.
By today's standards, you're in poverty, and now you have to compete against people who are even worse off than you are. What do you think newly freed slaves are going to charge for share-cropping?
You think newly freed slaves are going to demand 20%?
How dumb is that?
Newly freed slaves will be share-cropping for 5%-10% which cuts you out and you ain't go no more job.
So, then, Jim Crow Laws are a form of Economic Protectionism, designed to protect White share-croppers economically.
Instead of Blacks, what would be the situation if the slaves had been Native Americans (snicker)?
Jim Little-Crow Laws would have been enacted to protect White share-croppers against the Native American (snicker) share-croppers.
Let's pretend the US was under the control of the Imperial Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy, so all of the slaves are Slavs or of Slavic Ancestry or Descent.
Now the Slavs are newly freed, and what happens, Jim Crowovici Laws are enacted to protect White share-croppers against the Slavic share-croppers.
As you can clearly see, it was more a sort of quasi-anti-Immigration hysteria and job protection at the root of the Jim Crow Laws. Of course, you couldn't let "them" (whoever they might have been) gain any political power either, so the Jim Crow or Jim Little-Crow or Jim Crowovici Laws would have constantly expanded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas
I could go for Powell,...
As I have pointed out repeatedly, Colin Powell can never run because of his involvement with the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.
Historically...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alltheusernamesaretaken
Then quit yer griping and moaning, and remove that God-awful chip from your shoulder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow
I think that when we no longer have people who hang them, pull them behind trucks to their death, harass them, have the KKK, have the Aryan Nation...
When blacks don't have to make jokes based in truth such as:
"What did you do?"
"I was WWB" (or DWB)
"WWB?"
"Walking while black" (or driving while black)
When blacks don't have to think that some people in this country, if given that opportunity, would put them right back on the plantation, then yes, they should forgive and move on.
Until then?
No.
Edit: Thought I'd add in a few links for the first person who claims that we don't hang black people anymore.
I never said that anyone is arguing that "all white people are evil oppressors". But they are most certainly arguing that there is white bias going on. And they believe that that white bias, both caused the death of Trayvon, and also allowed Zimmerman to get away with it. Basically, they have turned Trayvon into a victim, and Zimmerman into an aggressor, who is supported by a biased police force.
And what that does psychologically is basically try to make a statement that whites or society is in a conspiracy against black people. That blacks aren't treated fairly by whites, and so therefore you cannot trust whites, because they will kill you.
Moreover, since people like Sharpton have already convicted Zimmerman in their mind, then if Zimmerman is not arrested, him and his followers will believe that the system is unjust. And they see the system being controlled by white men, and that blacks cannot be treated fairly in this country. You already have plenty of young unemployed and frustrated black men across the country, who are already angry at the system and also a lot of times at the whites they perceive as running the system. And it doesn't take much of a push before people start taking out their frustration in the form of violence, looting, rioting, etc.
You should really pay more attention to the recent racial violence that is happening across the country, and pay attention to what is going on in Sanford with neo-nazi groups there and the black panthers. If you can't see the dangerous turn this case has taken because of people like Sharpton and others, you're blind.
What is really bizarre is that Zimmerman is a self-identifying Hispanic. So why are Sharpton and his ilk demonizing plain old white people for this incident?
What is really bizarre is that Zimmerman is a self-identifying Hispanic. So why are Sharpton and his ilk demonizing plain old white people for this incident?
Because anyone who's not black is considered white. I'm amazed at how the Asian Indians who are in many cases as black as most blacks is considered "White".
Because anyone who's not black is considered white. I'm amazed at how the Asian Indians who are in many cases as black as most blacks is considered "White".
I thought the rumor was that Hispanics and blacks share a comaraderie because they are both minorities? Or is this just some propaganda that Hispanics push? Oh, I think I've got it!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
