*****Health Care Thread (part three)***** (roads, health care system, insurance, compare)

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by MotleyCrew

What the dems are offering is simply crap and throwing it at the wall and hoping it sticks is not a fix. The biggest complaint I have with the repub party is that they try to be too nice when in power and make fatal mistakes of trying to include the demons on the left. I think this administration has hopefully taught the right some nasty tricks and lessons on inclusion. I hope the repubs are just as exclusive and tricksty when they get the ball back.

Crap.. the REAL progressive core of the political party offered up reform that really STUCK it to the insurance industry.

It originally created

a) STANDARDS to be able to call yourself "insurance"
b) Removed the ability of insurance companies to drop someone simply becaues they are "sick"
c) Does away with pre-existing conditions
d) Created a public option .. OPTION so that the public coudl decide whether they wanted to pay a premium in which 30% went to bull**** private overhead OR have a REDUCED premium where the majority of it actually went to medicine (5% administrative overhead)
e) created the start of electronic records - this saves overhead, mistakes etc.
f) subsidies for families that can not afford premiums.. bringing the % of income that woudl be spent on premuims to around the 8-10% mark (as illustrated by the calculator posted a few pages back). Yes, this does create more government spending BUT what it ALSO does is put money INTO the insurance system that otherwise wouldn't be there (families not able to afford insurance wouldn't be paying for insurance) AND limits the amount of uncompensated care that occurs in this country.. WHICH lowers costs at the POS WHICH helps SLOW the rise of insurance premiums every year.
g) Called for more stringent monitoring of Medicaid/Medicare fraud

THere was so much more that the strong democratic House bill did..

Yes, the rest of the government body.. the majority of the government body.. is destroying the strength of the bill....

BUT.. EVEN the bill we have NOW is stronger than anything Bush proposed becasue it

a) lowers hte number of uninsured
b) offers subsidies so that more families can actual purchase and BE insured
c) does away with pre-existing condition clauses.

AND.. since hte public option was done away with they are now talking about breaking anti -trust..

All these slow the rise of premium rates over the next 10 years. as I said earlier you can't REVERSE costs, you can only slow the rise...

the bellyaching about the bill.. those in "cadillac plans" which, BTW, also leads to overuse of the system at the expense of the rest of us..and taxing the more wealthy of the population.. which enjoys a 300% difference in income from the rest of the country...

and yes. . the mandates are an issue.. But get over it.. your car insurance is mandated.. and this needs to be too...

But I propose this..

If all who do not like the mandates which to ***** about it and want to option out..

THEN.. at the POS when they walk into a hospital they have to carry ID to identify themselves as non compliant..

THen.. they have to SIGN OVER A LIEN on their house, their car to pay their doctor bills.. this way, when they recieve the care they refused to pay insurance for, they can't claim it can't be paid for.. and the rest of us do not have to pay the bill for that person! Oh.. and he can claim he was "personal responsible" for himself.. win /win i'd say!

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by mrmikeman

Here's a little reading for those who like facts;

Remarks by the President to a Joint Session of Congress on Health Care | The White House

this is the speech that he gave when the GOP and the insurance industry went on the attack with the Health Reform Bill that was so very strongly worded, that had excellent consumer protections.. it had it all EVERYTHING we need.. it was an excellent piece of legislation..

[NCyank]

Glad to see you are feeling better TM.

Now...which of these reforms do you oppose...and why.

-Buying insurance across state lines---something TM now seems to support
-Allowing individuals and small business to pool together to get group rates
-Simplify and computerize medical records
-Tax credits for individuals buying insurance
-Promoting and subsidizing HSA's for low income folks to buy their own insurance
-Tort reform
-Expanding and funding community health clinics

[NCyank]

Originally Posted by TristansMommy

and yes. . the mandates are an issue.. But get over it.. your car insurance is mandated.. and this needs to be too...

But I propose this..

If all who do not like the mandates which to ***** about it and want to option out..

THEN.. at the POS when they walk into a hospital they have to carry ID to identify themselves as non compliant..

THen.. they have to SIGN OVER A LIEN on their house, their car to pay their doctor bills.. this way, when they recieve the care they refused to pay insurance for, they can't claim it can't be paid for.. and the rest of us do not have to pay the bill for that person! Oh.. and he can claim he was "personal responsible" for himself.. win /win i'd say!

Why do you compare to car insurance when that is NOT a federal mandate? Can't you come up with something truly comparable?

I think it's kind of funny that you keep talking about people who can't/won't pay their own way...when you are one of them.
Who do you think will be paying your bill when you get your government insurance subsidy?

[GOPATTA2D]

TM, my father used to tell me as long as I lived under his roof and he was paying the bills I had to follow his rules. You might tell your own kids that someday.

As long as you expect the "rich" to pay your bills via subsidy, you will just have to live with their judgemental attitude. You have two cars, a home, a new laptop, high-speed Internet and who knows what else and you still complain that the gift-horse is not good enough. And you wonder why some people judge you.

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by NCyank

-Tax credits for individuals buying insurance
-Promoting and subsidizing HSA's for low income folks to buy their own insurance
-Tort reform

Im' not feeling better...giong through somethingright now.. pretty big.. and sort of distracting myself.. but not really because this just gets me upset about THIS..

The middle section that I left is what i have a problem with.. the other stuff was fine.

For one.. tax credits for individuals buying insurance doesn't do anything for people who CAN'T BUY INSURANCE.. LOL.. just becaues the government says I do n't owe them as much money at the end of the year.. doesn't mean that magically gives me more money each month to pay the high premiums. I still make the same income I make every month..with the same bills... not enough money.. too much month left type of thing.

And.. if I can't BUY the insurance in the first place, then I can't get the magic tax break at the end of the year.

It also doesn't adress those that can't buy insurance because of pre-existing conditions...

So basically.. this will do nothing for those that can't afford the insurance.

That leads me to the HSA's.. Again.. middle income families have seen a DECREASE in their take home income? So where exactly are they going to get the money to SAVE money.. for ANYTHINg.. let alone a HSA account.

Also.. that ALSO doesn't address those that have a condition... I'd be withdrawing before i can even put it in.. especially since buying health insurance isn't helped with the magic "tax break"...

So.. it does nothing.. nothing for helping families actually AFFORD to buy insurance..

How can i SAVE money I need to spend on health care costs in the first place (like in my case since I have a condition)..

It's a useless measure.. one that certainly is nice for those that actually HAVE expendable income.. but for the average family.. does nothing.


Tort reform is fine.. but it combats only 1% of the problem.. what about excessive tests and use of the system .

This plan was WEAK and did LITTLE to address the TRUE problems of health care.. and as the person a few posts back linked to an article that speaks of just how weak that "proposal" was.

AND..this is the Same stuff that the GOP wants to do now.. which basically changes nothing, does nothing and ignores many problems.

Its simply weak.

While we're at it.. funding "clinics' is all nice and good.. but still doesn't eliminate the uninsured.. OR do enogh to make sure the uninsured have rEGULAR doctors and access to prevent problems BEFORE they become emergent..

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by NCyank

Why do you compare to car insurance when that is NOT a federal mandate? Can't you come up with something truly comparable?

I think it's kind of funny that you keep talking about people who can't/won't pay their own way...when you are one of them.
Who do you think will be paying your bill when you get your government insurance subsidy?

I will be paying atleast a portion.. 52% of the insurance premium.. based on teh calculator..

Thati s far better than having NOT paid ANYTHING and hten showing up at a hospital in an emergency and having a bill in which 0% gets paid because I have to declare bankruptcy!!!

THAT is the difference.. . Why can't you all see that.

don't you see that by not allowing for subsidiesfor those families WITHOUT insurance you are in essence FORCING THEM OUT of contributing to a system.. because they can't pay the premiums?? because of affordability..

Isn't having them have SKIN in the game FAR BETTER than leaving them out to dry..

I think so!

Yes.. I will get a subisidy.. unless and until I start earning more money (and I'm trying.. as I stated I'd gladly reach over the 88K threshold.. I'm working every day to get there)..

[Greatday]

The car insurance analogy / comparison is bogus. Here is why:

If I own a car, I have the FREEDOM to get rid of the car and thereby ridding myself of the "mandate" to have car insurance.

However, with the health insurance mandate, there is no similar provision.

If one is going to compare / contrast something, it should be apples for apples.

The car insurance / health insurance examples are apples for oranges

[Greatday]

During some recent discussions with some others in the legal arena, health care / health insurance became a topic.

All agreed that there may be a whole new opportunity for lawyers to help individuals incorporate (more than now) and educate them how to put all of their assets - home, car, furniture, bank accounts, credit cards etc., into the corporate entity.

That way someone can live in that $2,000,000 free and clear home, but their personal financial statements will not show the asset. We can already do mortgage loans for personal residences in the names of corps.

[TristansMommy]

Originally Posted by Greatday

The car insurance analogy / comparison is bogus. Here is why:

If I own a car, I have the FREEDOM to get rid of the car and thereby ridding myself of the "mandate" to have car insurance.

However, with the health insurance mandate, there is no similar provision.

If one is going to compare / contrast something, it should be apples for apples.

The car insurance / health insurance examples are apples for oranges

OH.. you mean like apples and apples.

how people want to compare cars to health care.

Like in the scenario when they then try to equate everyone should be able to have health care like everyone should be able to have a car,or a home..etc.. Ah..I see. only compare apples to apples when it's convenient to your argument.

But you are right.. car insurance is a little different.. in that regard. WHAT is similar are the reasons everyone that owns a car must have car insurance.

I would GLADLY take the compromise that anyone that doesn't buy insurance via the mandate (with subsidies) should then be forced to sign a right to seizure of property IF and WHEN they need emergent care ,but refuse to carry insurance , and then have to default on their payments because the bill is too large.

ANd insurance mandates are unprecedented.. but then again.. so is the problems we are having with the health care system in our country