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Originally Posted by Pamky So they assume that being against Israels policies = anti-semitic ?
Your post sound like that. If true, then these polls have no real credibility.
I am not against jews, because Im against Israelis policies, I have nothing against Christians because I oppose some of the Christian countries policies (hope that makes sense) etc.
We are in 2010 and no, my friends don't make anti-jewish comments.
Oh, I fully understand that being against Israels policies does not make oneself anti-semetic. Here is the information you were wanting to see.
You are likely younger and more educated than many and please realize that we are referring to EUROPE. We should be more specific since Europe is a diverse landscape but you should know enough about your neighboring countries to realize that some of them are not as forward thinking as others?
I'd like to hear your thoughts after viewing the poll.
How about the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion that openly states that it's OK to cheat, deceive and steal from non-jews, but not against Jews? Is that a good one? (There are a bunch of things in this pile of Zionist racist nonsense)
This is the second time you've mentioned the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I didn't respond the first time because I couldn't tell if you were serious, but now I see that you were.
You should also know that even if you don't do or say anything else, presenting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a fact is, in itself, infallible evidence of anti-Semitism.
Throughout history Jews have settled in other people's lands (for various reasons). They've been outsiders. To be allowed in they had to bring something to the society not necessarily already there, innovation, or at the very least major work-ethic. Accordingly, they were usually one of the most successful segments of society - they had to be in order to be accepted. This is good until things go bad. When there was a downturn the Jews usually fared better than the native population and this, coupled with their outsider status, made them easy scapegoats. Do this multiple times over several thousand years, and you get a lot of deep-seated hatred and a lot of wack-job conspiracy theories (Jews secretly run the world, etc). You teach that to your kids, and that kind of hatred can stick around for generations.
Good point and probably on target. When i was a sociology grad student, I recall a study on the patterns of Jewish and Italian immigrants coming over here in the same wave with similar numbers and the significantly-higher success rate of the Jews. Put very simply, they had to band together to form their own society as the established society often scorned them. They worked arduously to get there. Many Italians (often in the same tailor trade) would return to Italy if they found things not to their liking. The Jews had nowhere else to go. so they hunkered down and made a go of it - and I say good for them! Let's face it: success is frequently envied.
This is the second time you've mentioned the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I didn't respond the first time because I couldn't tell if you were serious, but now I see that you were.
You should also know that even if you don't do or say anything else, presenting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a fact is, in itself, infallible evidence of anti-Semitism.
I'm not aware of this Protocols of Zion "conspiracy" to smear or make false claims ... if that's true, it was an honest mistake ... and not infallible evidence of anything. That the Protocols of Zion seem to marry very well with many corresponding statements in the Talmud could be considered the culprit here ... so let's just assume you are correct, and let's toss the Protocols of Zion (Wikipedia I'm SURE is never wrong), and let's just stick with the Talmud?
Unless the Talmud too is just a creation of anti-semites? No?
Why don't you address the Talmud? This is the holiest of Rabbinical interpretation ... is it not? Carefully inspected, would make the Protocols of Zion pale in comparison, so I have no problem accepting your's and Wikipedia's claim of foul on that. It certainly isn't needed to support the statements made.
You are likely younger and more educated than many and please realize that we are referring to EUROPE. We should be more specific since Europe is a diverse landscape but you should know enough about your neighboring countries to realize that some of them are not as forward thinking as others?
I'd like to hear your thoughts after viewing the poll.
First, you agree with me that one cannot generalize European countries and nations.
Second, I don't look at polls and take them seriously only because they use statistics. I do not see how the polls were taken, how many people have been asked, in which setting etc.
Thats why I don't care much about polls in general.
E.g. there is another poll on how muslims are viewed (in your example).
Reading CD (and taking it as a representation), I doubt that the negative attitude by americans against muslims has actually decreased in the last years and is lower than in european countries.
But that is off-topic anyways.
It is one thing to make a statement that there is anti-semitism, but you cannot take such a poll and maybe some intuition and prejudices and make the assumption that so and so many % hate jews and people only disagree with Israels policies because they have a problem with jewish people.
That is what I sensed from the OP.
If you want to have a discussion on racism in US vs racism in Europe, you'll need to find someone else, because these kind of debates are imo idiotic.
Just like "which religion has killed more people"?
Please,let's keep our discussion polite & within the TOS...
All arguments are accepted,if they are polite & not insulting...
As for the phrase "I am anti - Israeli,not antisemite ",some of those who use it are benign,some are malicious...
Some Israeli critics are oversensitive,because Israel always acts in self defence,with special precautions against hurting innocent Pals...However,the civilians used by terrorists as human shields,voluntarily or semi-voluntarily, are not "innocent "...
Some other Israeli critics are definitely closet antisemites,who hypocritically cry about "babies ",used by Pal terrorists as shields...
As for the "supremacy "claimed by the Talmoud,well,that's an old antisem claim...
It is a benign call for high spirits,means no malice to other nations,much like the phrase that many kids say.. . "My mom/pop is the best mom/pop in the whole world "... Those kids are not...supremacists...
First, you agree with me that one cannot generalize European countries and nations.
Second, I don't look at polls and take them seriously only because they use statistics. I do not see how the polls were taken, how many people have been asked, in which setting etc.
Thats why I don't care much about polls in general.
E.g. there is another poll on how muslims are viewed (in your example).
Reading CD (and taking it as a representation), I doubt that the negative attitude by americans against muslims has actually decreased in the last years and is lower than in european countries.
But that is off-topic anyways.
It is one thing to make a statement that there is anti-semitism, but you cannot take such a poll and maybe some intuition and prejudices and make the assumption that so and so many % hate jews and people only disagree with Israels policies because they have a problem with jewish people.
That is what I sensed from the OP.
If you want to have a discussion on racism in US vs racism in Europe, you'll need to find someone else, because these kind of debates are imo idiotic.
Just like "which religion has killed more people"?
1. This is a Pew poll....they tend to do a petty good job of making scientifically valid polls, they have credibility. You can read more detail about the polls if you click further into the link I provided.
2. The US is very open about it's racial problems. It is also a diverse melting pot.
3. I would ask you to just look around a little bit. The idea that "Europe" even on average is a tolerant inviting place to others is well....laughable. Parts of it? Yes...just like parts of the US. However, there is a LONG bitter history of nationalism and you certainly have to be aware of the anti-immigration issues in Germany, the muslim issues in France and the fact that Russia and some of the E. European countries are not renowned for being open minded racially.
Learning what sources out there are actually reputable (like Pew) is as valuable as learning what sources are utter garbage.
"It accused Israel of "grave breaches" of the fourth Geneva convention and of a war crime for using Palestinians as human shields during the fighting."
3. I would ask you to just look around a little bit. The idea that "Europe" even on average is a tolerant inviting place to others is well....laughable. Parts of it? Yes...just like parts of the US. However, there is a LONG bitter history of nationalism and you certainly have to be aware of the anti-immigration issues in Germany, the muslim issues in France and the fact that Russia and some of the E. European countries are not renowned for being open minded racially.
When did I start a discussion on that? I questioned the OP's numbers and still do.
Why is there always one guy on CD that wants to compare US vs Europe with someone from Europe? Doesn't matter what the topic of the thread is
How about the foundation of Judaism and the claim that the "Jews" are God's chosen people, and the Talmud's claim that the rest of the human race are but Goyim to serve at the feet of Jews? Is that a good one? (Lots of pretty damning stuff in the Talmud)
How about the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion that openly states that it's OK to cheat, deceive and steal from non-jews, but not against Jews? Is that a good one? (There are a bunch of things in this pile of Zionist racist nonsense)
Then there are the modern day actions of Israel and their overt genocidal ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, too numerous to be reasonably inclusive but includes such things as bulldozing homes and driving the owners out in order to build a home for a Jew they just shipped in from the other side of the planet? Or destroying an Olive grove of a Palestinian, or preventing them from harvesting, allowing the crop to rot. Or preventing a pregnant woman from going through a checkpoint, forcing her to give birth on the ground ... or the grabbing of a young Palestinian kid with two Israeli soldiers using a cinder block to break his arm ... or more recently, IDF using white phosphorus weapons on civilians ....
This is just the tip of the iceberg here ....
Want to have a rational discusion ... or are FACTS against the TOS ? Hmmm?
I believe in dialogue,so let's go argument to argument...
1) The Talmud claim of Jewish superiority is a benign praise & hyperbole,much like the innocent phrase of kids ..."my mom/pop/sister/nanny /teacher is the best in the world "...
2) The Protocols are a well know libel of conspiracy theories against the Jews...Even if it was a true product of "evil jewish minds" ,all Congreggations & Jewish orgs have denounced it..."
So no more "protocolism ",please...
3) Bulldozing Pal homes...
Either they were built illegaly,or its owner was convicted for a crime & since his only property is the house,the state "confiscates " it...Not much different than the USA gov confiscating & demolishing the property of a criminal who ows taxes ,fines etc...
4) Same for farmers,they are fined & pay the penalty...
5) As for the pregnant,either a staged provocation or a felony of a bad soldier who should be court marshalled,if he is a suspect of guilt...
6) Same for the breaking of an arm
7) Phosphorus is very effective & humane,kills instantly,without pain...See it as an application of a humane method for the death penalty,given extra-juidiciously by the IDF,only to terrorists guilty as sin...
The only logical criticism is the extra-juidicial manner of applying justice.
Israel should officialy reinstate the death penalty,at least for terrorists...
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