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I said it has come to mean that. There is another whole world out there outside of the South. And that's what it means to many. And those who fly it and don't care about it, well, they just don't care if they are possibly seen as racists. That's just a fact.
The South needs a new flag. Someone design one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
You certainly cannot make the assumption that someone flying a Confederate flag hates people of darker skin tones or supports slavery! "Is insensitive to those who may be bothered by it", yes. "Doesn't care if they come across as a redneck", yes.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of it...as they feel their turf more "invaded" by Yankees, they may feel more need to "advertise" being a native, and choosing (unwisely) a Confederate flag to do so. They should have stuck with the license plates that say "NC Native".
Not every Southerner owned slaves, so why should they be punished and told not to celebrate their culture by showing the flag?
And I believe that precisely ZERO of the people currently flying that flag ever owned slaves personally.
Again, I don't pretend that flying the flag is not going to stir up animosity, but in many cases, that may be the exact reaction the flyer is after, sort of a "F you if you moved here and don't like the culture!" I was raised to be more polite that that and never to brandish something I knew would offend people (certainly not as controversial as a Stars & Bars).
However, "Southern Pride" is a legitimate and admirable emotion (just like "New England Pride" or "Midwestern Pride" or "Jersey Pride" or whatever) and it is very unfortunate that there really is no generally-accepted symbol of "Southern pride" except the Confederate flag, which outsiders (and most black Southerners) see as wildly offensive and hate-inciting. Maybe we should ask African-American Southerners--who certainly understand "Southern pride" [one of the people I used to know who complained the most about Yankees was black]--what they suggest that is not a slap in the face to them or evokative of an ugly period in time. AND one that doesn't perpetuate the negative stereotypes that all too many Northerners/Westerners have about this part of the country already.
("You must spread some reputation around before giving it to zitsky")
I don't think so. I haven't seen one in almost 5 years.
Should we read this post with the mental image of you holding your nose up with your thumb?
I see them a lot in JoCo, it's embarrassing. I'll take my dumb rednecks to crime and sex offenders in Raleigh in Durham though. Just so I am clear, redneck is duragtory, and does not translate as "country person". The same way I'd call someone "ghetto" or "white trash". I have no problem with country people, just uneducated ones (and I live in JoCo).
Where is Johnson County in North carolina? I know where Johnston County is but never heard of the other one. NC must have added a 101st county and I didn't read about it.
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I can't see why it makes a difference whether someone flies the flag at their house versus puts a sticker on their car. I guess as long as they keep quiet about it and not make other people look at it, that's OK??
I'm not a Southerner, but I'm amazed at some of the comments in this thread. Some people think that the only person who would fly a Confederate flag is a redneck with a 9th grade education who hates minorities. No wonder Southerners hate Yankees so much! I'm the first person to jump up and protest racism but I also recognize that for some people it's about respecting their culture. I never understood why Southerners fought so hard to keep the flag until I moved here. I've tried to keep an open mind. Maybe it's because I lived north of the Mason-Dixon line in small towns and cities where outsiders might call us hicks or white trash or worse.
Many educated people believe that the War of Northern Aggression was fought over states rights and not about slavery (which was reprehensible). Slavery was despicable but not every person in the south owned slaves. Let's not forget that there were slaves and indentured servants in the north. Does that mean Yankees should be ashamed to fly the US flag? There is at least one well known African American who defends the Confederate flag. Is simply misguided or being coerced into doing what he does?
A lot of people in the US get very worked up when they see someone flying a Mexican flag, especially if it's improperly flown above a US flag. Some people in California and Arizona get really, really upset when they see someone with Mexican flag stickers on their car, or a Mexican flag flying from their window. Does this mean we should prevent Mexicans from flying their flag to celebrate their culture? I know the argument would be that Mexicans didn't own slaves, so what's the problem. Not every Southerner owned slaves, so why should they be punished and told not to celebrate their culture by showing the flag?
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*Sigh*
There is nothing honorable about the confederate flag or the people who served. They fought to preserve a institution that was morally evil and hypocritical to everything they considered Christian values. In my book every-time I see the flag, I see people who want to honor traitors to the union, terrorist, slave owners...it's repulsive. Everybody wants to talk about state rights but they always seem to provide half the sentence...the state right to preserve and use slavery. But it's cool go ahead and hang your flag, I just ordered my Soviet Union Flag, Japanese 1940 Flag, and Nazi Germany Flag. Al Qaeda is not on sale yet but I order that later...You want a flag to honor your heritage and your history then go fly an American flag and North Carolina state flag......
I'll be as brief as I can, because I don't have much time today.
As to the states' rights/slavery issue, yes, the war WAS about states' rights and the right of the federal government to prevent part of the country from seceding. The outcome of the war, as well as Reconstruction, settled that question.
A part of the greater issue of states' rights was the matter of slavery. It's debatable whether it was the main part or not, but it was definitely a part.
For hundreds and indeed thousands of years, slavery was seen as simple part of human existence. It wasn't until the 19th century that the idea of slavery as a moral wrong really took hold on a wide scale. It also wasn't until the 18-19th century that slavery really became tied to race.
For those who think the Union was fighting for racial equality, think again. The Emancipation Proclamation was signed well into the Civil War. There is also evidence that Abraham Lincoln was willing to prevent the war by agreeing to keep slavery legal until 1900. Racially hostilities were often far worse in many northern cities than in the South (especially in Boston).
Finally, the Confederacy hardly represented the most backward slave-holding country or the last holdout. Slavery in Cuba and Brazil lasted into the 1880s. Slavery in large parts of the Middle East and Africa lasted well into the 20th century.
The people who plaster the confederate flag on their trucks or clothing in a very in-your-face manner probably are the racist types, but there is certainly a large number of people who view the flag as nothing more than a piece of southern heritage.
The bigger question to me is, "Why are Southerners so heck-bent on showing how 'proud' they are of being a native-born Southerner?"
Why is it so important to show to the world how "proud" they are that they feel the deep-seated need to display a flag now widely used by white supremacy groups?
Birthplaces. We all have one. Mine is actually in the South.
Yet I grew up in the North, and no one I know or have ever met in the North has that kind of NEED to show that somehow they are special simply because they were born in the North. I would think the same is true with the West, Southwest, upper Midwest, and Midwest. Where are their flags? (I must admit, I have met some "Maine-iacs" -- their term -- who want to secede from the Union, but that's another story.)
Flying the Confederate flag is akin to a native-born German flying a Nazi flag in Germany. Like it or not, it is part of their "heritage." But it makes absolutely no sense to fly it today. Not only has it been "taken over" by fringe groups, it symbolizes harm to a certain category of people -- just like the Confederate flag does.
The Nazi symbol used to be a common symbol used in quilt-making many years ago. It's a symbol of our American quilting heritage. But its use as a hate symbol overrides its use as a simple design in antique quilts. The Confederate flag's use as a hate symbol also overrides its use as a symbol of Southern patriotism.
Both belong in a museum with information about their history -- and nowhere else.
Yet I grew up in the North, and no one I know or have ever met in the North has that kind of NEED to show that somehow they are special simply because they were born in the North.
Where are you from up North?? This just made me laugh. While you're right that you don't see a "Northerner's Flag" per se, you see every other flag! Cars all over have Italian, Irish, Cuban, Dominican, Greek, etc. etc. flags hanging from the rear view or as stickers on the back. IMHO, a symbol is a symbol. Just like to some Christians the Pentacle means "Devil Worship" while to those who display it more often mean something else.
I'm not from NYC or NJ, where I would think you'd see the most ethnic bumper stickers.
But ethnic bumper stickers or flags do not symbolize human enslavement or mass murder to anyone.
Ethnicity. Everybody's got one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunadesign
Where are you from up North?? This just made me laugh. While you're right that you don't see a "Northerner's Flag" per se, you see every other flag! Cars all over have Italian, Irish, Cuban, Dominican, Greek, etc. etc. flags hanging from the rear view or as stickers on the back. IMHO, a symbol is a symbol. Just like to some Christians the Pentacle means "Devil Worship" while to those who display it more often mean something else.
The South has so much potential and so many great things going for it. It's too bad that so many people dwell so much on a few years out of centuries of history. It seems unfortunate that rather than looking forward, so many people seem so stuck in the past.
On a lighter note: I've never seen so many Confederate flags before or since I spent some time in Central PA. That includes the two Southern states I've lived in.
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