Tuition Equality for Illegal Immigrants?! Let's Discuss (Green: homes, employment)

[KJoe11]

Originally Posted by AndyAMG

Enrico as a matter of fact I was furious over the birthing tourism Chinese couples were participating in. Regardless of wether it was about circumventing the one-child policy that child can now have the same rights as a US citizen for being in the US for a matter of months. That is utter BS. They are doing this in Canada as well. You'd be crazy to think they won't use this perk later on. The ultimate plan is the child can sponsor the parents and they all live happily ever after in the US or Canada.

blah blah, I'm tired of this discussion. There is no gray area. They are not citizens, they are not legal. They do not deserve the same benefits as Americans until they become citizens. They do not deserve in-state tuition.

My parents were immigrants in the 40's both were born outside of this country. But before they left Scandinavia they had done the paperwork to become citizens and eventually did, but at no point were they here illegally. They tried like crazy to sound American, act American and integrate into society seamlessly. They did nothing to rattle the cage or draw the ire of naturalized Americans.

What makes me mad is that MEXICANS (I guess we can add Central Americans of different nationalities as well) come up here then make little effort to become citizens because they don't have to. Hell, half of them don't want to because why put all that effort in when you can go border hopping every few years and get the best of both worlds.

My wife was telling me, that if a prospective tenant has no social security number (read illegal immigrant) they skip the background checks. Are you $%#ing kidding me? I as a legal citizen have to have all my records checked but these illegals don't have to worry about it? And you can't ask them about it? WOW, just WOW.


Arizona did this in 2010.


Exactly! Good for AZ, all states should follow suit. SB1070 just enforces a federal LAW.

Please read my post above. Accept it and you will sleep better.

[grokster]

A lot of people seem to forget the states created the federal government not the other way around. It is the states right to deem anyone that abides their laws a residet or not. How they entered the country is not part of this equation.

There is however always a tarnishing patina around the arguments presented by those who oppose "illegals" - extreme nationalism or better yet racism.

If we haven't noticed the US is not doing very well and its not immigrations fault, these people are coming here to work. It is the conglomerates that export our jobs which is the problem.

If a kid wants to study, can make the grades, and has he drive to become an educated member of society it is to our benefit. Let's harrass the kids that are born here from American parents on welfare and food stamps who don't have the same drive. We have bigger fish to fry than worry about how much "illegals" are being charged for tuition. It's asinine.

[Steve Pickering]

Originally Posted by grokster

A lot of people seem to forget the states created the federal government not the other way around. It is the states right to deem anyone that abides their laws a residet or not.
Not true. How did that work out for the south during the civil war? How they entered the country is not part of this equation. Yes it is. That is what laws are about. It is illegal residency.

There is however always a tarnishing patina around the arguments presented by those who oppose "illegals" - extreme nationalism or better yet racism. Race has nothing to do with this. Comming here illegally does. This is not a Mexican thing. Salem is over run with Eastern Europians. And the south of the border hords come from south of Panama.

If we haven't noticed the US is not doing very well and its not immigrations fault, these people are coming here to work. It is the conglomerates that export our jobs which is the problem. Illegals make up the same number of seats (DESKS) as the shortfall in our school budgets. I can't argue with the job export or imports either such as H1B.

If a kid wants to study, can make the grades, and has he drive to become an educated member of society it is to our benefit. Let's harrass the kids that are born here from American parents on welfare and food stamps who don't have the same drive. We have bigger fish to fry than worry about how much "illegals" are being charged for tuition. It's asinine.

The fish don't get much bigger than the illegal elephant in the room.

[phlinak]

Originally Posted by backdrifter

This doesn't seem to be the appropriate subforum for this topic, but I'll bite.

It makes no sense why someone who is American in language, cultural paradigms and mores, their upbringing, and every other way but place of birth, ought to be punished because their parents violated a minor immigration code (it's a civil infraction by the way--not a criminal one). Would you disallow me from ever getting my driver license because my father had a DUII with me in the car while I was a child, even though I did everything right with driver training, licensing, etc.? No, because that's stupid. We don't punish people for sins of the father.

I don't agree with some of the other options either. I shouldn't have to join the military to be granted citizenship in the only country I've known my ENTIRE life, which I love and wish to contribute to, so why should my best friend for something s/he has had no control over and, perhaps, even knowledge of?

It's almost as if we have forgotten we are a nation of immigrants and supposedly the 'land of opportunity'...

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that California I believe simply requires that you have attended 3 or 4 (can't remember exactly) years of and graduated from high school in the state to qualify for in-state tuition. This covers American/Californian kids who were brought here without documentation as young children, and also brings ex-Californians back to their home state to complete a degree and add value to the economy post-graduation.

People, people, people.

Please, before you speak out of ignorance and embarrass yourself, google and read the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA), specifically, United States Code (U.S.C.) Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality

[SIZE=1][SIZE=1][LEFT]§ 1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination
or inspection; misrepresentation and
concealment of facts[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][LEFT]Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter
the United States at any time or place other
than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains
entry to the United States by a willfully
false or misleading representation or the willful
concealment of a material fact, shall, for the
first commission of any such offense, be fined
under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6
months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission
of any such offense, be fined under title 18,[/LEFT]
or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
As you can read, entering the United States illegally is a misdemeanor criminal offense punishable by a fine and imprisonment for the first offense. Any additional offenses are punishable by a fine and up to 2 years imprisonment. For those of you who do not know, any sentence that calls for more than one year of imprisonment is a felony conviction.

So those of you who poo-poo illegal immigration as just "a minor infraction like a parking ticket" are patently wrong and also a huge part of the problem. No one has a "right" to enter any nation other than their own. The United States has the right and responsibility to exam or inspect anyone entering its territory. We are no different than any other country, in this respect. Do you think you can just enter Mexico at any time or place of your choosing without being exam or inspected? Try it and you will be spending at least 2-3 years in a Mexican prison before you are deported. Only Mexican citizens have a right to enter Mexico. Every other country operates the same way. Germany. Israel. France. Sweden. The UK. Canada. It doesn't matter what country you name, they all reserve and exercise the right to refuse entry to anyone who is not one of their citizens. The immigration laws exist to protect our citizenry by:

1) preventing the entry of those with communicable diseases,

2) Preventing the entry of those who endanger public safety, such as terrorists, child molesters, criminals, and other undesirables,

3) barring those from entering the country who would become an economic drain via our social services, and

4) causing an adverse effect on our economy by taking jobs from Americans and subsequently, causing an increase in unemployment.

I understand having compassion for someone who wants a better life but at the same time, I think there is a serious problem when a person starts off by breaking the law to enter our country. If you disagree with a law, then work through the established process to get it changed but whether you agree with the law or not, no individual has the perogative to pick and choose which laws he/she will obey and which ones he/she will not.

For those who believe otherwise, we have a solution we call the criminal justice system.

Lastly, how fair is it to the legal aliens who filled out the paperwork, paid the fees, and waited in line to enter the United States, when you advocate for allowing those who cut the line, the right to stay?

[Minervah]

Lastly, how fair is it to the legal aliens who filled out the paperwork, paid the fees, and waited in line to enter the United States, when you advocate for allowing those who cut the line, the right to stay?

This hit a nerve for me especially. Like many people in this country, I am only second generation. My grandparents were immigrants. Legal immigrants. It wasn't easy. They came by way of Ellis Island. They had to have sponsors or they couldn't come over here. But that wasn't all. Many immigrants were turned back at Ellis Island because they didn't make the grade. So close. They could see what they believed to be the land of opportunity for them as opposed to where they came from which often meant death if they went back.

Sometimes families were separated at the Island. Some were accepted some were turned back. Everyone took a number and waited for the quota from their respective countries to be call. From what I understand, even the great Albert Einstein waited his turn and didn't cut the line though he and his family were potentially in danger from the Nazis.

Schools were something these immigrants worked hard in sometimes not speaking a word of English like my mom and aunt because although my grandparents could speak it they didn't speak it at home. English immersion classes for my mom and aunt were the regular classes they were in listening to the teachers and other American kids until they caught on.

I don't mean to get all dramatic here but I think those of us who heard these stories at our grandparents' and parents' knees just don't understand this being okay with illegal aliens, anchor babies and free education stuff. I hate to sound harsh but why some and not others? When did the rules change and why? Is the difference simply geography because some immigrants lived across an ocean and some across a desert?

No one has ever adequately explained this to me.

[grokster]

Ok see there are a few points here that no one ever dares bring up but I will.

Why do we have an immigration problem in the first place? Our process is way too long and complicated. Our process is not what we can call "fair" as it heavily favors the wealthy immigrant over the lower class. Unless you know someone going through the process you really don't know how expensive it can become very quickly. Now extrapolate those costs to people making cordobas/pesos/sols and its almost impossible.

Secondly many of these immigrants are fleeing from puppet governments the US planted i. their native countries as far back as the '80s.

We have also been caught selling/giving cartels weapons (fast and furious). Who knows what else we have been directly involved in.

And lastly we encourage US companies to set up shop in 3rd world nations where they can ignore all US work conditions, pollution laws, labor laws etc.

We really have contributed to the immigration problem quite a lot. Studies show however illegal immigrants have a net positive economic impact. What are we really arguing against here?

[AndyAMG]

Grokster,you are very misinformed.

Why do we have an immigration problem in the first place?

Go to Alaska Airlines, buy a ticket to Tucson, drive to Nogales, spend a week there. Then tell me if you'd like to stay longer or go back to the United States after the month is over. As an American I guarantee you'll beg to come back. It's really crappy away from the beaches and the resort towns.

Then, trade your American Dollars for Mexican Pesos. You have a lot more buying power don't you? Almost 12-1.
So if you are a Mexican, you go work in the US make 3000 dollars a month, send half back to your family in Mexico. Now they have the same 12-1 buying power doing the same job they would be getting a few dollars a day to do in Mexico. $1500 dollars becomes 20000 pesos. $1500/mo is poverty in the US but you can live like a king in Mexico on 20000 pesos a month. A lot of Mexicans come here for a few years, go back, come in again, then go back, never intending to be an actual US citizen. The figure I saw is that only 30% stay longer than 5 consecutive years. My dealings with my sister's and their desire for Mexican men has shown me this first hand.

The process to become a citizen is easy actually, but if you don't have to, why bother?... We just had a luncheon to congratulate one of our Ukrainian engineers on he and his wife's citizenship. They had anchor babies so the kids were already citizens. It cost them around $1500 dollars. 5 years of being loyal American citizens, and the whole time Petr contributed greatly to society by engineering prototype medical equipment.

They way you should get into a country legally is the way Petr did it. Get a work visa. Work in America. Be an outstanding citizen reapply for your visa every year then start doing the paper work to become a citizen.

We need more engineers, not more laborers. So yes, we should favor wealthy imigrants over the lower class. The UAE is figuring this out the hard way. Try to become Swiss...or even Austrian.... You CAN'T.

Your political rant has no clout the us does this in every country, even our own. Fast and Furious. Iran Contra etc. The US has been doing this forever and always will, it's a moot point.

You're right! We... including you, do in fact encourage companies to set up shop in developing nations. In the form of lower priced goods and labor. Europe and Asia do it too. US labor laws are stupid. People work in those conditions because it was better than what their country's business leaders were offering.

No. Mexico's inability to treat it's citizens with dignity has really contributed to OUR immigration problem. I bet you I can find a study that says something different. You can spin a study any way you want. The real reason we are lax on immigration enforcement is cheap labor. That's it.

I'm arguing against the loss of American jobs especially in general labor markets, increased health care costs, government spending to take care of our friends when they aren't working or when they want to get an education. I'm against anchor babies, of any nationality. I'm against needing to know Spanish just to get a good job or order my food (more AZ than here).

[grokster]

Where do I begin?

See the reason we according to you don't need laborers is because we aren't producing enough on our own soil. Why is it that toyota and volkswagen have facilities here but chevy makes cars in mexico and canada?

We need more engineers? Great! We have a population of highly motivated young minds here in the states. If you can pay your way and make the grades in college who cares where you are from.

The citizenship process is not easy at all and your friend's example proves my point that it favors immigrants with more money.

Saying that fast and furious and the contra/iran issue is a moot point demonstrates how blind you really are. We meddle in foreign affairs often to the detrement of the local population and then when they try to escape a situation we created you want to kick them out. What kind of sick logic is it that we can't critisize our government when it's obviously damaging.

I can't agree with you on Alaska. I happen to think Alaska is a wonderful state that we can all learn from. They embody survivalism and self sustaining lifestyles.

You are right though on cheap labor. However isn't it better to make work visas more accesible? Charge them higher taxes even.

No one though ever wants to admit how much of this is actually our own creation.

[EnricoV]

I thought this thread was about college tuition rates ... not the problem of illegal immigration.

[christiner81]

Originally Posted by EnricoV

I thought this thread was about college tuition rates ... not the problem of illegal immigration.

and lmao at an illegal mexican immigrant making 3k/mo - that would be an extreme exception.