Is it better to have 4 wheel drive around here? (buy, design)

[pdxMIKEpdx]

You aren't going to guilt trip me out of enjoying my 4x4, while exploring and camping in the wonderful Cascades, Wallowas, Blues, and the central Oregon desert.

Keep riding your bikes around Portland, and feeling superior to everyone else.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx

You aren't going to guilt trip me out of enjoying my 4x4, while exploring and camping in the wonderful Cascades, Wallowas, Blues, and the central Oregon desert.

Keep riding your bikes around Portland, and feeling superior to everyone else.

If you want to equate your use of a 4x4 to what I was talking about, that is on you. I can't lay any guilt on what I don't know anything about. A guilty conscience, however, needs no one to accuse it.

[Squidlo]

4x4 isn't a gotta have vehicle. I still own my 2004 Ram with a Hemi I bought new from Timberline dodge. The 4x4 is a recreational vehicle in my eyes. I used mine extensively at the coast and around Mt Hood. You can get into and more importantly out of more places with a 4x4. For a daily driver a Subaru awd would conquer about any daily driver problem I could think of. I drove nothing but big clunky rear wheel drive sedans and pick ups and I don't remember being stranded. If you live out west of Portland and commute in to Portland. The hills could give you trouble between gravel trucks during the infrequent snow blasts.

[pdxMIKEpdx]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

If you want to equate your use of a 4x4 to what I was talking about, that is on you. I can't lay any guilt on what I don't know anything about. A guilty conscience, however, needs no one to accuse it.

Well for one thing I don't have a "guilty conscience".

I just get really weary of people that directly or indirectly insult & imply that their way is the only way, and the rest of us (and our descendants) will rot in hell if we don't see the same "light" that they are seeing.

Kind of like what you're doing.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx

Kind of like what you're doing.

Someone has to do it Mike. It really isn't "you're ok, I'm ok". Some things are actually not that cool to do. I don't know why you feel so indicted, unless you know something I don't. I certainly didn't level any charges against you directly. Psst. I can and do DRIVE. Not every day, not even every week. But how else do you get to the coast? And yes, I usually opt for the smallest car I can find, and not because its any cheaper, Enterprise pretty much charges the same no matter what you get only SUV's and trucks have special pricing, but last time they didn't have any small cars and I was faced with a full size sedan or a small SUV which they would have given me at the car rate. I took the big sedan.

The world didn't end. I actually enjoyed driving it. But Portland is full of people who own F350's becuase they can. They enjoy rolling coal on cyclists that they pass because they can. My next door neighbor can go in and out 5 times in an hour each time in his truck. That's 5 times that I am aware of. Don't know how many trips he makes before it occurs to me that he is making pointless runs of 10 minutes or less one after the other. Does that make sense? Is that sustainable done by 10's of thousands of Americans and other people every single day? Do I really NOT have the right to suggest that there are other lifestyles that are <gasp> better? Less wasteful?

Sorry, no, I will not be guilted into remaining silent while we destroy the planet that we went and put innocent children in. They didn't ask to be here. We are obligated to at least try and leave some Texas Crude in the ground for them to use to make plastic with. We can run cars on electricity. Plastic can't be made any other way except by using petroleum. Done. For now.

[pdxMIKEpdx]

After all those words....You must type 800 words a minute...............But most of what you spout is unproven......And BTW, It's a free country.

[pdxex]

Hmmmmm.Same folks that accuse others arguing a lot!
I lived there 30 some years.
IF you live in the hills, travel rural and mountain roads, you might find a 4 wheel drive practical.
If you do not, the answer is no.
It's really that simple!

[USDefault]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

Does that make sense? Is that sustainable done by 10's of thousands of Americans and other people every single day? Do I really NOT have the right to suggest that there are other lifestyles that are <gasp> better? Less wasteful?

Then why don't you go out and preach about the one thing that truly matters: stop breeding. According to very accurate research:

A study by statisticians at Oregon State University concluded that in the United States, the carbon legacy and greenhouse gas impact of an extra child is almost 20 times more important than some of the other environmentally sensitive practices people might employ their entire lives -- things like driving a high mileage car, recycling, or using energy-efficient appliances and light bulbs.

Concludes the New York Times: "The study found that having a child has an impact that far outweighs that of other energy-saving behaviors." Having Children Brings High Carbon Impact

Thus, if anyone has kids -- including you -- they have no right to lecture anyone about the environment, green living, or the carbon footprint. This is because their choice to breed is many orders of magnitude more devastating to the environment than anything else you've talked about. Truck trips? Laughable waste of your time to even mention it, let alone make a mental note of it. It doesn't matter, at all. Breeding homo sapien carbon units is what matters. By an enormous margin.

You've mentioned "for the children" multiple times. Those children are the problem. Breeding is the problem. Period.

I purposefully avoided breeding on this miserable rock because there are too many people chasing too few resources, and the resources are running out. Fortunately, this decision puts me and mine far, far ahead forever on the green meter of every breeder on this planet. Accordingly, for the rest of our childfree days, we will do exactly what we want, when we want. Food, water, traveling, experiences, and day-to-day life, we will do it in a manner we see fit.

And we will not waste time with most "green" things, which are a laughable and measurably irrelevant drop in the bucket compared to the carbon footprint nuclear bomb of breeding. We are not purposefully wasteful. But no breeder or parent will ever lecture us on reforming our lifestyles to be more "green." So here's a big "F you" to any and all breeders who would step to us about the environment -- you forever lost the argument, the battle, and the war the moment you birthed a human, thereby skyrocketing your deleterious impact on this planet and its finite resources.

[USDefault]

Originally Posted by kompromat

normal sedan ... so what's the deal? I see many SUVs on the road, but many regular cars too.

This is the deal: snow tires. Get some. Purchase four dedicated snow tires. They will make an enormous difference in wintertime drive performance, especially on snow and ice. You likely won't even need to use chains, ever, even on fairly steep gradients, if you have four good snow tires on your car for winter weather events.

Also, tires matter far, far more than whether you have rear-wheel drive, front-wheel drive, all-wheel drive, or four-wheel drive (each is different). If your tires have zero traction in snow or ice, AWD or 4WD won't make a damn bit of difference. Using snow tires on my rear-wheel drive sedan, I've driven by many, many SUVs and trucks that couldn't get a damn bit of traction, because they had the wrong tires (most likely summer tires which are utterly awful in snow, or junko "all seasons" which aren't much better). Heck, I was in Oregon during the big storm last year, saw several 4x4 trucks sliding right into and through intersections, while I had zero problems.

Been through many winters. Biggest impact: having snow tires. And modern snow tires are so good, they will get you through most snow and ice conditions as long as you keep a safe speed and safe following distance. Your biggest danger will be other drivers who fail to install proper snow tires or snow chains, because PNW winters on the coast are pretty mild. Snow is rare west of the Cascades, drivers aren't used to it, and they scare the crap out of me when it snows because they are not prepared. East coast and Midwest winters are much worse than anything we get out here; I've seen literal feet of snow in Buffalo, and -10 F in Minnesota with granite-hard snow and ice, conditions that are much, much worse than anything we will get in the PNW.

So, it'd be a total waste of money to go out and buy a different drivetrain. That drivetrain will be utterly useless without the proper rubber shoes for your ride.

I've done a lot of research on snow tires. I'll give you a couple recommendations. Arguably one of the best non-studded snow tire on the market is the Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2. A bit pricy, I own a set, amazing in even feet of snow. Also work pretty damn good on ice, because the rubber compound has abrasives in it that help grip sheer ice -- and it works. No, you're not doing 65 mph on an ice rink, but you can certainly drive around when the roads are icy, and the difference between the Hakka R2s and "all season" tires is amazing.

Further, don't take my word for it. Read the experience of this fellow PNW car reviewer in a Volt and using R2s:

But it was the snow performance which really blew us away. On the multiple trips we made last winter to the nearby ski resort of Mount Hood, our snowflake-emblazoned R2s handled both fresh snowfall and hard snowpack with aplomb. And since our tires met the requirements under Oregon State law for ‘winter traction tires’ there was no need to stop and chain up on mountain passes, keeping both us warm and the car going exactly where it needed to. Moreover, the combination of the LEAF’s front-wheel drive electric motor and grippy winter tires meant that we were able to power pass more than one stranded 4×4 V-8 pickup or SUV spun out on the steeper passes. And with no chains to worry about we found it our winter excursions on snow almost as quiet as driving on regular roads.

If you want to spend less money, a good alternative is the General Altimax Arctic. Never owned them, but the reviews are stellar, and they are quite a bit less than the Nokian tires. People swear by them. And this is after lots of my own research on the matter, reviewing lots of comments. People also like the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 tires.

So, that's what we do. A dedicated set of snow tires and rims. I own a good floor jack, nice large tire iron, and with these two pieces of equipment I can swap out my summer tires for my snow tires in about a half hour, usually less. Then, I don't care what the conditions are outside, so long as the main roads have been plowed once and there's not four feet of snow on the roads.

A caveat. Are you living out in the Gorge? Are you commuting from Mt. Hood? Do you live in a remote area with steep mountain roads and difficult-to-plow neighborhoods? If yes, then you may need studded snow tires, and possibly snow chains as well. I've yet to encounter any moderate snow (below 30 inches) or ice that couldn't be defeated by a good set of properly installed chains on all four wheels. Please note I said chains, I mean real metal chains that go over the wheel and you tighten down, not those stupid cable ties, which are garbage.

[TedW20217]

Originally Posted by kompromat

I've recently moved back after few yrs away and brought my car with me, which is a normal sedan. I hear people telling me if I think about getting a new car, I should get a 4wd due to poor road conditions in the winter. They are saying these past few winters have been pretty bad, and roads are not cleaned properly, especially in residential areas and suburbs. When it comes to getting to work and moving around, they had problems for a couple weeks this winter and 4WD made a big difference. On top of it, there is a lot of hills here so what's the deal? I see many SUVs on the road, but many regular cars too.

Yes and with winter tires. Read the owner's manual or order one, then use 4wd high during the conditions mentioned. Do not wait until you are stuck first, use 4wd high to keep yourself from becoming stuck or losing traction on ice or driving over or through snowy weather conditions.