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Research I looked into about never-married vs. others - based on old data - doesn't support my hunch that middle-aged women who find themselves incel off themselves. For men, it does support that association, to no one's surprise. Divorce also is toxic to men. Incel men experiencing mental anguish is, I conclude, not unusual for the circumstances.
I feel little sympathy with people who make their own problems.
People who make their own problems or people who are the cause of their own problems, through various physical, mental, emotional, or social issues that they may not be causing intentionally? Subtle difference. Self-sabotage is real; so is social anxiety, poor social skills, poor romantic skills, lack of self confidence, deformity, autism spectrum disorder, etc.
Yes. And this isn't something any rando woman can fix through affection, sex, etc. It takes a therapist, soul-searching, etc., but just getting affection and/or sex won't do it. In fact, in many of these groups, they actually look down on the women who will have sex with them. Literally, women can not win and are made to be the blame...for...everything. (Actually, if you want to take this more literally, nobody wins in such a situation, or even winds up happy.)
One woman taking a chance on me, asking me out, and starting a relationship with me was enough to make me want to improve myself, even if she eventually turned abusive and ran me off. In my entire life she's the only person who made me feel attractive and desirable. I wanted to see myself as she saw me before I fell off of her mental pedestal, and I wanted to feel the feeling of being desired and loved again (unsuccessful, despite significant changes and improvements to myself). Her taking a chance is what is prompting the sweeping life changes I'm making; one person made the difference for me, though therapy and soul-searching followed.
Now again, where I differ from the dark brand of incel is that I turn all of my frustration and anger (when it exists) inwards at myself, rather than outwards at others. But I doubt most of them appear that different from me on the exterior; in the VICE video the interviewer even mentions something about that, if I recall. Socially awkward, unattractive, nerdy, critical lack of self-confidence. For all she knew when she asked me out I could have just as well been a misogynistic incel looking for trouble.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
And BTW, up until a certain point where we really, really are put off by the person, we women do give guys "chances."
That hasn't been my experience at all, outside of the woman I mentioned above.
People who make their own problems or people who are the cause of their own problems, through various physical, mental, emotional, or social issues that they may not be causing intentionally? Subtle difference. Self-sabotage is real; so is social anxiety, poor social skills, poor romantic skills, lack of self-confidence, deformity, autism spectrum disorder, etc.
Yep. And plenty of these guys still get dates with the right attitude and outlook. I married one. He now has a girlfriend and he dated here and there before meeting her. I'm sure there were ups and downs, as he expressed in the past, but he eventually found himself in a relationship.
I also dated a few others who exhibited many of these traits. There are support groups for men and women who are on the spectrum and struggle with communication and interpersonal skills and confidence.
Acquiring a woman, as if women are just mere property, should not be the goal. Yes, I understand desiring companionship, even for men who exhibit these traits and characteristics. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. There *is* something wrong with thinking one is entitled to sex or a relationship because "that's how things used to be when women had fewer options" and were often obligated to date/court a man because she didn't have the means to support herself. "Women are pickier now than in the past." Women have more options, should they choose to exercise them, because they don't need to rely on a spouse for support. She can have actual preferences that she was discouraged from having in the past because the purpose of the family unit was not necessarily attraction, chemistry, likability, and compatibility, it served a far less romantic and warm fuzzy purpose.
Also, if Incels are that hung up on the departure from "traditional values" and gender roles and yearn for the days of a Proverbs 31 woman who is a helpmate and knows her place, they are free to look for a mate in conservative evangelical and fundamentalist churches. Back in the day when I was eyeball-deep in IFB nonsense us girls and young women were told looks should not be a priority and that it is vain and ungodly to focus on "worldly, carnal pleasures." Heck, my [estranged] father admitted there were better-looking women than my stepmom when he was doing the video dating service thing in the early 90s, but she was a "woman of god" so she fits the bill. Awesome.
On a more personal note, I have two kids, a daughter and a son, on the spectrum. They exhibit all the typical traits of social awkwardness and less-than-stellar communication skills, much like their father. I'll be damned if I raise them to think they can use their neurological traits and characteristics as an excuse to blame others for not giving them what they want. They, too, are not entitled to anyone's body. They can desire companionship should that be their thing, but I'll call them out on their nonsense if they start spouting claptrap about the evils of x and y because they're not getting attention...like the Staceys and Chads. They don't need to be a Stacey or Chad to be liked, and they shouldn't ever try to emulate them. :shudder: Their focus should be working on communication skills, gaining confidence and surrounding themselves with support from healthy-minded and compassionate people.
Acquiring a woman, as if women are just mere property, should not be the goal...
I've agreed with all of those sentiments multiple times. My question: does a guy who starts harboring resentment for others because of factors that he did not intentionally design deserve compassion? Or is he to be ridiculed and treated like a potential criminal/terrorist?
I've agreed with all of those sentiments multiple times. My question: does a guy who starts harboring resentment for others because of factors that he did not intentionally design deserve compassion?
If that resentment comes from a place of entitlement and blame, nah, you won't find a sympathetic ear from me and many others. There's a difference between being dateless and struggling with lack of confidence and social awkwardness while trying to improve oneself and seek support from the right people and Incel --complete with violent invectives directed at "women" (and other men), harassment, vitriol, and an extreme, dangerous level of misogyny.
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Or is he to be ridiculed and treated like a potential criminal/terrorist?
Saying someone is mentally unstable and needs therapy is apt when the behavior and attitude verge on wildly unhealthy and dangerous. It is not women's job to make unstable, insufferable and vitriolic men feel better about their predicament. It's not on women to fix them, and saying they need professional help is no lie. If you behave like a potential criminal then you'll be regarded as dangerous. You won't be met with hugs and rainbows when you act like a self-entitled monster. (generally speaking)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
Yep. And plenty of these guys still get dates with the right attitude and outlook. I married one. He now has a girlfriend and he dated here and there before meeting her. I'm sure there were ups and downs, as he expressed in the past, but he eventually found himself in a relationship.
I also dated a few others who exhibited many of these traits. There are support groups for men and women who are on the spectrum and struggle with communication and interpersonal skills and confidence.
True. However, there's a lot more I can say to this. Very often it's subtle things most of us have a hard time picking up on - ones that ultimately propel the Incel rationale (though maybe not logic per se).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
Acquiring a woman, as if women are just mere property, should not be the goal. Yes, I understand desiring companionship, even for men who exhibit these traits and characteristics. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. There *is* something wrong with thinking one is entitled to sex or a relationship because "that's how things used to be when women had fewer options" and were often obligated to date/court a man because she didn't have the means to support herself. "Women are pickier now than in the past." Women have more options, should they choose to exercise them, because they don't need to rely on a spouse for support. She can have actual preferences that she was discouraged from having in the past because the purpose of the family unit was not necessarily attraction, chemistry, likability, and compatibility, it served a far less romantic and warm fuzzy purpose.
Agreed about getting a woman shouldn't be the goal. Unfortunately, there's a lot of cultural attitudes that say "If you're a guy who can't get a girl/woman, then you're not worth the gum that sticks to your shoes". The corollary to this is that "Ability to get a girl (sex or romance) is the end-all, be-all measure and/or reflection of a guy's worth" (or maybe I have the 'corollary' and the first statement switched. Either way, it's potentially a really severe vulnerably to a guy's sense of self worth - especially a young guy's). Most young people will not be swayed by the assertion "There's nothing wrong with you and/or not being able to get sex or romance" unless you have very detailed arguments or evidence that defeat that widespread attitude. So if you don't directly challenge the logic underpinning those virgin-bashing claims, you'll run on a never-ending treadmill.
I have no objections to women having greater choices than in the past, for I strongly believe in consistent standards between men and women. On to the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
Also, if Incels are that hung up on the departure from "traditional values" and gender roles and yearn for the days of a Proverbs 31 woman who is a helpmate and knows her place, they are free to look for a mate in conservative evangelical and fundamentalist churches. Back in the day when I was eyeball-deep in IFB nonsense us girls and young women were told looks should not be a priority and that it is vain and ungodly to focus on "worldly, carnal pleasures." Heck, my [estranged] father admitted there were better-looking women than my stepmom when he was doing the video dating service thing in the early 90s, but she was a "woman of god" so she fits the bill. Awesome.
Mostly agreed. I don't know what IFB means, so I'll only say that 'godly men' don't exactly get a free pass either, even if usually not often held to the (admittedly unfairly more) strict standards imposed on women. Even so, at some point, most men and women alike who want to marry do have to settle in some shape, fashion, or form. Each individual has to make their own call, of course; but IMO if they do settle, settling for a 'not a sexual turnoff' is probably a lot better than demanding a high-sex-appeal type who is emotionally and personality-wise incompatible. I don't know your father, so I won't comment about him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
On a more personal note, I have two kids, a daughter and a son, on the spectrum. They exhibit all the typical traits of social awkwardness and less-than-stellar communication skills, much like their father. I'll be damned if I raise them to think they can use their neurological traits and characteristics as an excuse to blame others for not giving them what they want. They, too, are not entitled to anyone's body. They can desire companionship should that be their thing, but I'll call them out on their nonsense if they start spouting claptrap about the evils of x and y because they're not getting attention...like the Staceys and Chads. They don't need to be a Stacey or Chad to be liked, and they shouldn't ever try to emulate them. :shudder: Their focus should be working on communication skills, gaining confidence and surrounding themselves with support from healthy-minded and compassionate people.
Here's where I'll comment about a broader matter, for I see the Incel issue as just the surface of a deeper human problem - ultimately independent of sex and romance (i.e. this applies to outright asexual aromantics just as much as to the most passionate desperate romantics). That issue is the frankly f'ed up ways people tend to size up others' deservance of respect and disrespect. I stated earlier that people erroneously use sex/romance success as a litmus test for human worth. Others are the usual traits like wealth, strength, courage, looks (especially in this image-conscious society), social intelligence, and so forth.
To make a long story short as I can, a huge part of the problem is that we as a society see civilized and human traits as either a boring but important trait for a winner (sex-basis or not) or a consolation prize for a loser. I can go off on an enormous number of tangents here, but the bottom lines are (1) this attitude explains a lot about why we as a society tend to raise crappy-souled people to the top, and (2) we should choose social circles whose culture openly oppose frankly bigoted attitudes toward those with poor social skills and all the other personal imperfections you said your family had.
Regardless, we should all call out scornful attitudes toward people who "can't get a date/hookup", plus the usual prerequisite personal traits allowing for ease of dates and hookups -- and prejudicial distaste toward people who are alone for whatever reason. THIS will do a lot to take a huge bite out of the Incel problem (apologies to McGruff the Crime Dog).
Research I looked into about never-married vs. others - based on old data - doesn't support my hunch that middle-aged women who find themselves incel off themselves. For men, it does support that association, to no one's surprise. Divorce also is toxic to men. Incel men experiencing mental anguish is, I conclude, not unusual for the circumstances.
Incel women don't kill themselves, they get cats. And incel men didn't used to get all bitter about it and form groups where they fed off each other's frustrations, they just played Dungeons & Dragons together. But I guess that's out of fashion now.
Incel women don't kill themselves, they get cats. And incel men didn't used to get all bitter about it and form groups where they fed off each other's frustrations, they just played Dungeons & Dragons together. But I guess that's out of fashion now.
Yep and before that, they would be in the chess club and play with ham radios. They seemed like nice guys, just quiet and nerdy. I don't know what happened over the years, except a difference in how kids are raised, and the internet.
Many women do get lonely and depressed if they are alone all their lives, if they are not a cat lady or social group type they can turn to substances and become suicidal.
There's a ton of men out there that could have their lives changed if women approached and initiated. Women incorrectly assume if they aren't approached that nobody wants them.... I realize biology drives men to be pursuers and women to be the pursued however but a lot of men are shy or just bad at the playful banter women expect when being pursued.
Women might actually like the guy too...maybe not in all cases, but a lot of men are appreciative of getting any attention from women at all. A man who is starved for affection will be much more appreciative when he gets it in a genuine way then the man who's so desired by women he has them lined up chasing him because of his natural charm or good looks.
Men dont handle loneliness that well..we cope as best we can, often in a silent or stoic manner...especially the ones the always wanted the one special someone to have a family with and weren't ever interested in screwing around with random women.
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