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If nose rings aren't allowed, they're just not allowed, period. REGARDLESS of "religion." It appears that kids are smarter than what we give them credit for = they know how to get what they want...and so do some parents. For example, I could use my religion to break other school rules (such as mandatory attendance), by not allowing my children to participate in science class due to evolutionary content taught, as it is against my family's religion. But no, I have to tell my kids they must attend, participate, learn AND test on that crap even though it is TOTALLY against our religion. The principle is the same: Using the "freedom of religion" card to alter rules.
Yes you're right Mike - the child will have bigger problems to worry about (like making it through a job interview) one day soon....maybe she'll remove that sucka one day when she finds that she can't pay her rent? Sometimes it takes that for people to adjust. Like I learned to cover up my tattoo unless I know it's permitted to be visible. I could argue that my tattoo is for religious purposes hahaha
The point is: Stop using religion as a crutch to manipulate and break rules!! Take the frikkin thing out at 7:30 a.m. and cram it back in there at 2:45 p.m. sheish. Legal rulings like this also set precidents. Lowering expectations/standards = heightened drama. Get ready for a whole school full of exposed body piercings now, Clayton....lol Nothing personal against the girl (one of my sons knows her and thinks it's hilarious that she's 'claiming the "religious" thing to 'get her way') but hey....just my opinion...everyone has one.
Last edited by bleighorr; 10-21-2010 at 10:34 PM..
Here is the thing: the science curriculum is not religious. It has nothing to do with religion. Period. Yours or anyone else's. It's science. You can not believe it, but it doesn't mean that the school system is infringing on your religious rights. If you really don't agree with the curriculm, then homeschool or go private.
On the other hand, children in public schools are allowed to express their religion through traditional things like jewelry and headwear (even though headwear is against dress code). Musilm girls can wear headscarves, Jewish boys can wear a yarmulke, Sikhe boys can wear a turban, Cristian children can wear crosses and Hindus can wear nose rings. If one group wre NOT allowed to express themselve religiously in that way, it would be unfair, such as with this child. Surely a Christian child can learn without cross earrings and be asked to remove them during school hours. But why should she if it is part of her faith? And if ONLY cross wearing religions were targeted (no crosses allowed!) would that be OK?
But what is being taught in science class has nothing to do with ANY of this. If you have an issue with course content, then you should leave public school.
Some might argue that schools should only make rules they can legally enforce. Is there enough precedent elsewhere to suggest this was a non enforceable rule once challenged? Do surrounding counties ban them or do they get better legal counsel or maker better decisions? Perhaps the school system took a cavalier let em sue position, thinking no one would.
Heck, there's religions that worship sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll for that matter - look at the Jim Jones cult...so does that mean those behaviors should be permitted in school for "religious purposes"??? Hmmm...good point Tuborg - but one would think that lawsuits would abound in today's time (look at the unemployment rate). Look cross-eyed at someone in today's time, and you'll get sued....lol
Lamishra: The point is, it is YOUR opinion that the science curriculum is not religion. In other people's opinions, the science curriculum DIRECTLY DEFIES their religious beliefs, especially when one believes in Creationism/Christianity (a religion has been around since the beginning of MANKIND and is historically documented). So one considers the very act of wearing a nose ring to defy a religion, but yet cannot acknowledge a core belief system being defied???? Because our religion is getting defied (and defiled) every time an evolutionary principle is taught and debate/argument about evolution breaks out in my son's science class (which is every week, it seems). Yea, respect everyone's else's religion BUT Christianity: That's always such a hoot to me. But back to the original point....
Then of course, one can make the argument about saying it's "religion" and then actually living it. So does this mean that kids all over school now can say that they're in this "religion" and all the sudden, body piercings will be allowed? Oh please. So all the kids who now have taken their body piercings out to attend school will be screaming that it "defies their religion." It's absolutely ridiculous. The school can set the limit as clothing, and body piercings are optional just like that (not mandatory). According to my son, she's not even "religious" per se....that's why many of the students think it's so funny. I'm just gonna throw this out here but: Could it be she's just a spoiled brat that wants her own way...and will go to any lengths to get it? There seems to be a WHOLE lot of them running around in today's time....
So I'm gonna start suing my employers who won't hire me because they don't want to look at my tattoo....because....it's part of my religion??? (hmmmm...yeah.....it's part of my RELIGION!!!! - oh yeaaaaa now THAT will get me more job opportunities!! quick let me get that lawyer's number *rollin eyes*) haha
The point is just as you said: SHE should leave public school or switch to another school that permits it, if piercing "defies" her religion....kinda like you just advised me to do, because I'm actually DEALING with my violations and my children are attending their classes as required by law (and defending their faith in the process) instead of calling a lawyer to complain about how our spirituality is being violated for a class period a day, rather than dragging it into a courtroom where a judge rules on it. There are FAR more serious matters that take people MONTHS to get in front of a judge for (like delinquent child support and child abuse/custody cases).
It's funny, but if I pulled my kids out of school, violated attendance rules, made a stank about the curriculum and how it defies Christianity, I would never get a ruling in favor of MY religious beliefs....Rules are rules - no exceptions: Homeschool that gir or send her to a school that permits itl!!! :-))
Last edited by bleighorr; 10-22-2010 at 07:56 AM..
Some might argue that schools should only make rules they can legally enforce. Is there enough precedent elsewhere to suggest this was a non enforceable rule once challenged? Do surrounding counties ban them or do they get better legal counsel or maker better decisions? Perhaps the school system took a cavalier let em sue position, thinking no one would.
By including an exemption for religion in the rule and then playing arbitrary games about which minority religions are good enough, the school set themselves up for a battle independent of the enforceability of dress codes. I really doubt the courts are going to side with the school on this issue - the potential mess resulting from giving a bunch of school principals the power to decide which student's religions are valid is a way bigger problem than a few students wearing non-disruptive religious tokens to school.
The benchmark ruling for cases like this is Tinker vs.Des Moines Independent School District. While that case dealt with 1st ammendment freedom speech issues, read it and see how much of it applies to the current case. The student isn't causing a disruption, other religious symbols (Christian crosses) aren't being targeted, and so on. There's lots of examples of more recent cases where schools failed to recognize "crazy" minority religions - Judaism for example - and most of those ended badly for the schools.
This really reads like another case of ignorance of a few school administrators costing the school board a lot of money. Typically schools are smart enough to settle these out of court instead of risking having their entire dress code come under the scrutiny of federal judges. Hopefully the JC schools figure this out.
I would bet my bottom dollar this is how it happened.
The girl got the piercing and the parents approved. Went to school and told she violated school rules and to take it out. Of course she hasn't been taught respect for authority so she refuses. Parents pick her up. Google it to see other instances and find that there is a religon based around this (which I feel is even made up as well just to satisfy someones personal desires). Then send her to school the next day with this excuse.
Standards are only getting lower in the US. I don't see any getting higher.
I'm waiting for the day when some kid's doctor prescribes smoking pot, for medical purposes.
Since Wake County schools don't allow smoking on campus, what is that kid going to do?
It is difficult, in today's world, to teach these kids in their teens and 20s that they must obey the RULES and the LAWS.
However, if a rule or a law isn't for the good of EVERYONE, I'm all for fighting to get it changed. In my opinion, the rule of not allowing students to wear face pierceings and t shirts with dirty words is a good thing.
This girl's religion says she CAN remove the piercing and put it in later. It does NOT say that it must be in her nose 24/7. Therefore, I believe she should have to OBEY THE RULE.
Again, the law says that schools can enforce rules against significantly disruptive behavior so none of the hysterical slippery slope arguments have much merit. Is wearing a piece of jewelry really stopping the entire school from functioning or presenting a clear threat to student safety? If so, all of those Christian cross necklaces and earrings need to come off. If a rule is good for everyone its good for everyone, after all.
The question shouldn't be "how far can religious expression be repressed before it breaks", it's "what's the harm in allowing non-disruptive expression". By the first argument, we should prohibit silent non-disruptive prayers. They're not required for Christians so they're out. Luckily the courts realize that there's nothing to be gained from giving government officials the ability to micro-manage religious expression. So what's to be gained in regulating which jewelry kids wear? Any evidence at all that it was disruptive?
Are we really trying to teach that all of the "freedom and liberty" stuff they teach in civics classes is just lip service, or does it actually mean something? Seems strange to teach that US law is important and at the same time want the arbitrary decisions of a few school administrators to be above question and reproach even if their actions are illegal.
Children are pretty quick to pick up on hypocrisy. Having authority figures ignore the law - or in this case even ignore the arbitrary rules that they made in the first place - isn't going to make kids buy into the "rules are rules for everyone" idea.
How did we get from a nose ring to a discussion of religion vs. evolution?
Certain Christian groups believe freedom of religion includes the ability to legislate their religious beliefs into reality. They want to force the schools to teach their religion's creation myths as fact to a captive audience of children. When they fail they claim that their rights are being violated.
Since they think their rights are being violated, they equate their "persecution" with that of other groups who claim their right to practice their religion is being violated. Unfortunately the legal facts between the two situations are vastly different - and this causes the confusion you (and most of us have) when they're treated as the same.
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- and most of those ended badly for the schools. 
