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Get rid of the statues. Nobody cares. But do it in an orderly manner. But do it.
Get rid of the SCV, the Daughers of the Confederacy and the Daughers of the Mayflower (or something like that). Stop glorifying the past. Live in the present and future.
Everybody loves to claim credit for relatives considered "good or famous" yet nobody claims to be related to deadbeats, bums, criminals or crooks.
If a person is so mentally fragile that a statue erected almost 200 years before they were born causes them a mental breakdown they should seek help.
I would imagine a Jewish person would take issue with this, should they encounter a statue of, say, Hitler, in the town square... If you think this is an unfair comparison, slavery to the holocaust, then clearly you know little or nothing about the 250 year history of American slavery. 250 years! The true history, not watching Gone with the Wind, or even what you read in most school textbooks, approved by southern committees as acceptable for the teaching of our youth. The brutal murders, beatings, family ripped apart, systematic rape of women, etc. 250 years...
One of the difficulties in discussing anything having to do with the "South" in the USA is how badly history has been whitewashed. The noble, "Lost Cause," or "States' Rights!" approach, with a plucky South standing up to the big bully North, is a total fantasy.
It's extremely rare for a country to own up to the horrors of its past. Germany after WWII was one of the few examples of this. Kudos to them. But that is the exception, not the rule. Americans never own up to history, preferring the Disney version of events, where we always wear the white hats. But again, fairly typical.
America never really examined the true history of slavery in any systematic way. It was politically expedient to move on. And even worse, to distort the true reality. And because of that, it seems to confuse many people today - usually older, White people - why some can get so worked up over things that happened "200 years before they were born."
But who knows, maybe in 120 years we'll hear the same about Jews, they should really just get over it or "seek help".
I would imagine a Jewish person would take issue with this, should they encounter a statue of, say, Hitler, in the town square... If you think this is an unfair comparison, slavery to the holocaust, then clearly you know little or nothing about the 250 year history of American slavery. 250 years! The true history, not watching Gone with the Wind, or even what you read in most school textbooks, approved by southern committees as acceptable for the teaching of our youth. The brutal murders, beatings, family ripped apart, systematic rape of women, etc. 250 years...
One of the difficulties in discussing anything having to do with the "South" in the USA is how badly history has been whitewashed. The noble, "Lost Cause," or "States' Rights!" approach, with a plucky South standing up to the big bully North, is a total fantasy.
It's extremely rare for a country to own up to the horrors of its past. Germany after WWII was one of the few examples of this. Kudos to them. But that is the exception, not the rule. Americans never own up to history, preferring the Disney version of events, where we always wear the white hats. But again, fairly typical.
America never really examined the true history of slavery in any systematic way. It was politically expedient to move on. And even worse, to distort the true reality. And because of that, it seems to confuse many people today - usually older, White people - why some can get so worked up over things that happened "200 years before they were born."
But who knows, maybe in 120 years we'll hear the same about Jews, they should really just get over it or "seek help".
Correct!
One of the big differences in the outcomes is....
In WW2 the Allies forced Denazification in Germany and Reconstruction Japan to ensure that the nationalist forces which drove each of the countries to their respective positions during the war couldn't be roused again. Culture, Press, Education, their justice systems, politics and political parties etc were all forced to be adjusted so that the Nazis/Nationalist Emperor supporters would have a tough time ever co-opting the countries again.
Here in the US we started down that path. Part of Reconstruction was to a be "DeConfederatization" of the South. Former Confederates weren't allowed to hold political office and a sorta "reeducation" was to take place. Lincoln is assassinated, Johnson takes the helm. Johnson was a pro union Southerner, but also held strong beliefs about State's Rights. He softens Reconstruction's aims and goals, yet the increased political power of Freedmen drove the White Southerners mad. Grant comes to office, the Klan comes on the scene, Republicans (who at the time of their creation were the "Liberal" party in this country) begin their long march towards the Conservative Party of the US, and as a result, Reconstruction implodes because it became pretty clear that the racism that exists at the very core of our collective being overcame the will to right the wrongs.
The next 155 years of our history is proof of that failure. By failing to root out that evil when the opportunity contextually made sense, it became a history that could be augmented (by groups like the UDC) to make the story anything but what it actually was. I mean, anecdotally, my next door neighbor is in his early forties, born and raised in Chapel Hill (which today, while maybe not in his day, I don't know) has the best school district around. His US history in HS was the Lost Cause Mythology. That the US split apart not because one side was fighting for, as US Grant said "...though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was least excuse." but rather for some sense of defending honor in reaction to aggression from outsiders.
In WW2 the Allies forced Denazification in Germany and Reconstruction Japan to ensure that the nationalist forces which drove each of the countries to their respective positions during the war couldn't be roused again. Culture, Press, Education, their justice systems, politics and political parties etc were all forced to be adjusted so that the Nazis/Nationalist Emperor supporters would have a tough time ever co-opting the countries again.
Here in the US we started down that path. Part of Reconstruction was to a be "DeConfederatization" of the South. Former Confederates weren't allowed to hold political office and a sorta "reeducation" was to take place. Lincoln is assassinated, Johnson takes the helm. Johnson was a pro union Southerner, but also held strong beliefs about State's Rights. He softens Reconstruction's aims and goals, yet the increased political power of Freedmen drove the White Southerners mad. Grant comes to office, the Klan comes on the scene, Republicans (who at the time of their creation were the "Liberal" party in this country) begin their long march towards the Conservative Party of the US, and as a result, Reconstruction implodes because it became pretty clear that the racism that exists at the very core of our collective being overcame the will to right the wrongs.
The next 155 years of our history is proof of that failure. By failing to root out that evil when the opportunity contextually made sense, it became a history that could be augmented (by groups like the UDC) to make the story anything but what it actually was. I mean, anecdotally, my next door neighbor is in his early forties, born and raised in Chapel Hill (which today, while maybe not in his day, I don't know) has the best school district around. His US history in HS was the Lost Cause Mythology. That the US split apart not because one side was fighting for, as US Grant said "...though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was least excuse." but rather for some sense of defending honor in reaction to aggression from outsiders.
My, what could have been.
This country's racist and holocaust-like treatment of native americans has been similarly mythologized, whitewashed and ignored.
This country's racist and holocaust-like treatment of native americans has been similarly mythologized, whitewashed and ignored.
Manifest Destiny baby!
(I agree)
Topics such as these are why a good swath of this country wants books like The People's History of the United States banned. By interweaving nationalism, jingoism and renaming it "Patriotism", we as a society have said anything that dispels the virtues of this country's existence shall be branded traitorous.
The Stephen Dill Lee Institute is the SCV’s main educational outreach program, according to its website. The next event is being held in Raleigh in 2020 where six academics are expected to speak. The program’s stated goal is to “organize accomplished and distinguished professional scholarship to inform our members and the general public of the Southern side of the war,” including issues of states’ rights, economic motives, Union Army war crimes and “the dubious benevolence behind the slavery issue.” Really?! That's a telling statement from a group avowing it's not racist.
I see a bunch of slander from students who can't be bothered to speak with anyone that has a different point of view. I see people claiming to fear violence when they themselves have used violence to destroy the statue. I look forward to your review of the conference when you attend on the 28th.
I understand the myth of the lost cause and how historically inaccurate it is. I have yet to see any statements from any SCV member that believes whites are a superior race and all other minority groups should be destroyed. That is the ideology of actual white supremacy. There isn't a white supremacist lurking behind every discussion of the Civil War so we can stop slandering everyone with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmoe571
Hey, here's a novel idea: How about paying no money at all for anything like that and just get rid of a statue erected for racist reasons like the way other places are doing? We'd save millions that way. Oh, that's right, that would be capitulating to "the mob." A wonderful way to refer to people with real grievances. Then again, I see below that you took that definition from someone else. That figures too.
They are a mob because they use violence to achieve their goals and believe in the destruction of those that don't share their view. No one currently studying at NC state was alive when these statues were built so their grievances are invalid. (Unless there is a student over 110 years old). The students are being manipulated by activist groups such as the World Worker's Party. However I can understand wanting to be part of a victim group to get the endorphin hit from Facebook likes or to share in the money from the grievance industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmoe571
Defending your position by quoting a two-and-a-half-year-old editorial in lieu of facts doesn't bring much credibility to your argument here. Look, everyone who's studied it knows that Silent Sam and other Confederate statues were by and large erected decades after the Civil War to honor white supremacy. It's a noxious notion of "remembering" history, especially for a side that lost the conflict.
The UNC mob wants to destroy the statue. I was trying to offer a perspective from someone who studies human culture as to why that is a bad idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmoe571
Your responses that I've boldfaced above tell me more about you and your issues rather than offer any good reasons on why Judge Baddour's decision was wrong to overturn this undeserved $2.5 million payout to the SCV--who just happen to have given financial support to many Republicans in the legislature. Wow, what a coincidence. You can keep on arguing your side, maybe even using facts this time rather than your opinion, but I'm betting history is going to be against you.
And here we go attacking the messenger. The decision to overturn the settlement was wrong because judges can't arbitrarily overturn contracted agreements. You can't say "I void this agreement because there is no standing" without first having a hearing to validate standing. The mob is claiming the statues should be "put somewhere else" and now that UNC provided money to do so they sue to undo it? The goalposts keep moving. Anyway I'm out before the thread gets locked for being off topic.
and we didn’t hear much from him until now. UNC should have dismantled him with respect long before now, and put him in a dark basement till the end of time. The way the university handled this thing makes me want to puke.
I see a bunch of slander from students who can't be bothered to speak with anyone that has a different point of view. I see people claiming to fear violence when they themselves have used violence to destroy the statue. I look forward to your review of the conference when you attend on the 28th.
I understand the myth of the lost cause and how historically inaccurate it is. I have yet to see any statements from any SCV member that believes whites are a superior race and all other minority groups should be destroyed. That is the ideology of actual white supremacy. There isn't a white supremacist lurking behind every discussion of the Civil War so we can stop slandering everyone with it.
They are a mob because they use violence to achieve their goals and believe in the destruction of those that don't share their view. No one currently studying at NC state was alive when these statues were built so their grievances are invalid. (Unless there is a student over 110 years old). The students are being manipulated by activist groups such as the World Worker's Party. However I can understand wanting to be part of a victim group to get the endorphin hit from Facebook likes or to share in the money from the grievance industry.
The UNC mob wants to destroy the statue. I was trying to offer a perspective from someone who studies human culture as to why that is a bad idea.
And here we go attacking the messenger. The decision to overturn the settlement was wrong because judges can't arbitrarily overturn contracted agreements. You can't say "I void this agreement because there is no standing" without first having a hearing to validate standing. The mob is claiming the statues should be "put somewhere else" and now that UNC provided money to do so they sue to undo it? The goalposts keep moving. Anyway I'm out before the thread gets locked for being off topic.
Get over yourself with the slander crap. These organizations are set up to glorify and remember the confederacy. The confederacy was started so states could allow their white citizens to literally own people that they thought the natural order of things meant that they were superior to. It’s written right down in various publications and some of the states own resolutions to join the confederacy. Ergo, they are promoting white supremacy.
Again. I’d think differently if the statue was put up right after the civil war and the speeches around its dedication didn’t talk about whipping people. In fact, I used to be just like you and thought the same way because I received a quite poor education in this area of history in the Wake Public school system. I was actually told, in the 80s, that most slave owners were good and they didn’t mistreat their slaves. I was never shown a diagram of how a slave ship was loaded and didn't see that until in my 20s and man was I shocked. I was a real idiot. However, once I got older and realized the actual truth, it became quite obvious that Silent Sam does not deserve a place of honor, but instead should be melted down to make plaques that should be put up everywhere explain just how evil people can be.
Get over yourself with the slander crap. These organizations are set up to glorify and remember the confederacy. The confederacy was started so states could allow their white citizens to literally own people that they thought the natural order of things meant that they were superior to. It’s written right down in various publications and some of the states own resolutions to join the confederacy. Ergo, they are promoting white supremacy.
If anyone gets confused about what the CSA was or wasn't started over, one only needs to read Alexander Stephens' (VP of the CSA) Cornerstone Speech that he gave in Savannah GA exactly 22 days before the attack on Fort Sumter.
No need to "analyze it through modern interpretation" at all. Go straight to the source. As Willy Wonka famously said, It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal....
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