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I see a bunch of slander from students who can't be bothered to speak with anyone that has a different point of view. I see people claiming to fear violence when they themselves have used violence to destroy the statue. I look forward to your review of the conference when you attend on the 28th.
I understand the myth of the lost cause and how historically inaccurate it is. I have yet to see any statements from any SCV member that believes whites are a superior race and all other minority groups should be destroyed. That is the ideology of actual white supremacy. There isn't a white supremacist lurking behind every discussion of the Civil War so we can stop slandering everyone with it.
They are a mob because they use violence to achieve their goals and believe in the destruction of those that don't share their view. No one currently studying at NC state was alive when these statues were built so their grievances are invalid. (Unless there is a student over 110 years old). The students are being manipulated by activist groups such as the World Worker's Party. However I can understand wanting to be part of a victim group to get the endorphin hit from Facebook likes or to share in the money from the grievance industry.
The UNC mob wants to destroy the statue. I was trying to offer a perspective from someone who studies human culture as to why that is a bad idea.
And here we go attacking the messenger. The decision to overturn the settlement was wrong because judges can't arbitrarily overturn contracted agreements. You can't say "I void this agreement because there is no standing" without first having a hearing to validate standing. The mob is claiming the statues should be "put somewhere else" and now that UNC provided money to do so they sue to undo it? The goalposts keep moving. Anyway I'm out before the thread gets locked for being off topic.
It took you nearly a week to respond to my points, and yet despite being asked for facts, again you give us all your opinions with little to justify them beyond your personal experience. What's worse is that you contradict yourself constantly in this response. You claim to be upset about name calling and "slandering" people discussing the Civil War yet you use generalizations of the student protestors as shown in bold and keep calling them a mob without any sense of hypocrisy. Then again, since you referred to those studying at NC State rather than UNC where Silent Sam is, that alone shows us how deep your sense of accuracy is on this issue.
The rest of your rambling is just embarrassing even by your low standards. Manipulation by the Workers World Party (the actual name of the group, not World Worker's Party as you wrote)? Getting an endorsement hit from Facebook likes? And the judge's decision to overturn the contract wasn't arbitrary but based on the facts that ... ah, forget it, you won't read or acknowledge that anyway. Boy, for someone who claims to study human culture, you must be flunking your classes regularly.
And sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not attending that conference on the 28th. If you're the type that's attending it, that tells me all I need to know to avoid wasting my time and losing some IQ points.
I mean, the judge who overturned this is not some random judge sweeping in from outside. He’s the same judge that approved the initial settlement. He knows everything, having been involved from the beginning and still decided to overturn his own decision here.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,813 posts, read 34,657,307 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR
I agree. Don't destroy them. Put them in museums and on Battlefield State/National Parks so I can see them in their proper context. And I agree, not everyone who disagrees is a racist. They are simply sympathizing with someone/something that was on the wrong side of history.
That's easy for someone whose ancestors weren't subjugated, owned as property, had their entire culture stripped away and once that was all over, took another 100 years to get guaranteed rights to say. But ya, they need help....
FTR my ancestors weren't slaves. However they did help occupy Murfreesboro and laid waste to Hood's Army at Franklin.
Ah, the Army of the Cumberland, previously Army of the Ohio. Most of my people who participated in the Civil War were there, too.
NC Spin tackled this. The panelists blamed this mess on the legislature. They were right. One panelist suggested putting Silent Sam back and immediately building a pyramid around him so that no one ever sees him again. It's a good idea, all things considered.
Ah, the Army of the Cumberland, previously Army of the Ohio. Most of my people who participated in the Civil War were there, too.
NC Spin tackled this. The panelists blamed this mess on the legislature. They were right. One panelist suggested putting Silent Sam back and immediately building a pyramid around him so that no one ever sees him again. It's a good idea, all things considered.
Correct
One branch of the tree on my dad's side had a great-great-great-grandfather in the 80th IL Vols (Kimballs' IV Corps under Schofield). I personally have the least amount of info on him, but know that Grose's brigade was dead center of the Union line.
The other side (still dad's side, but his mom's line), had a great great great grandfather in 154th IL Vols. Co. F. They were involved in "garrisoning" Murfreesboro toward the end of the war. I actually have his original discharge papers framed in my "Treasure Room".
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,813 posts, read 34,657,307 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR
Correct
One branch of the tree on my dad's side had a great-great-great-grandfather in the 80th IL Vols (Kimballs' IV Corps under Schofield). I personally have the least amount of info on him, but know that Grose's brigade was dead center of the Union line.
The other side (still dad's side, but his mom's line), had a great great great grandfather in 154th IL Vols. Co. F. They were involved in "garrisoning" Murfreesboro toward the end of the war. I actually have his original discharge papers framed in my "Treasure Room".
Many of my people were in that army from the beginning, when it was the Army of the Ohio. I've researched it heavily because of the casualties.
While researching, I ran across letters from soldiers that included one from a soldier who told of getting into a conversation with a man who he assumed was an able-bodied white man but was not a soldier. It turned out that the man was a slave who appeared to be white, but was mixed in heritage.
The whole thing is creepy, and not all states fighting for the Union side were free of slaves.
I remember about 20 years or so ago, the City of Philadelphia was doing an inventory of statues and found several Confederate officers memorialized, in Fairmont Park, for service during the Mexican War. There was a question of what to do about them. I don't know what they did.
It would seem that a good solution to the problem would be to gather up memorials like Silent Sam and put them in regional museums or parks, but we have to deal with a very bad law, first. In the mean time, I like the idea of the pyramid around Silent Sam.
Many of my people were in that army from the beginning, when it was the Army of the Ohio. I've researched it heavily because of the casualties.
That's awesome. I admittedly don't have a ton of info on either of them, just high level details I have been able to find online plus one of theirs discharge papers.
I found way more details about my wife's great uncle who was a B-24 -> B-17 pilot in the 8th AF who was KIA in '44 over Germany. I found a historian online who sent me PDFs/Pictures of declassified documents from the war which I shared with my wife's family (they knew nothing other than "Uncle John was shot down"). They are heading to France in May to visit his grave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
While researching, I ran across letters from soldiers that included one from a soldier who told of getting into a conversation with a man who he assumed was an able-bodied white man but was not a soldier. It turned out that the man was a slave who appeared to be white, but was mixed in heritage.
One of my prized possessions is a 1868 copy of W.L. Goss' Captivity at Andersonville with a hand written letter from an Andersonville survivor tipped into the front page of the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
The whole thing is creepy, and not all states fighting for the Union side were free of slaves.
Correct. There are even reports of regiments (I know of one from IL) who basically went on the lamm because they wouldn't fight for slave liberation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
I remember about 20 years or so ago, the City of Philadelphia was doing an inventory of statues and found several Confederate officers memorialized, in Fairmont Park, for service during the Mexican War. There was a question of what to do about them. I don't know what they did.
It would seem that a good solution to the problem would be to gather up memorials like Silent Sam and put them in regional museums or parks, but we have to deal with a very bad law, first. In the mean time, I like the idea of the pyramid around Silent Sam.
Yes the law here is bad and should be dealt with. You'd almost think they knew exactly what they were doing.......
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,813 posts, read 34,657,307 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR
That's awesome. I admittedly don't have a ton of info on either of them, just high level details I have been able to find online plus one of theirs discharge papers.
I found way more details about my wife's great uncle who was a B-24 -> B-17 pilot in the 8th AF who was KIA in '44 over Germany. I found a historian online who sent me PDFs/Pictures of declassified documents from the war which I shared with my wife's family (they knew nothing other than "Uncle John was shot down"). They are heading to France in May to visit his grave.
One of my prized possessions is a 1868 copy of W.L. Goss' Captivity at Andersonville with a hand written letter from an Andersonville survivor tipped into the front page of the book.
Correct. There are even reports of regiments (I know of one from IL) who basically went on the lamm because they wouldn't fight for slave liberation.
Yes the law here is bad and should be dealt with. You'd almost think they knew exactly what they were doing.......
I think that Berger knew exactly what he was doing, and since he's a NYer, he should be ashamed. He should have known better.
I like NC Spin. They cover both sides of topics. This was a topic where there was only one side, which is rare for them. If you didn't see it, it should be on YouTube by now.
The North Carolina Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans has 45 days to return the Silent Sam Confederate monument to the UNC System, a judge ordered Thursday.
The group, known as SCV, must also return the remaining balance of the $2.5 million trust fund set up for the statue within 10 days.
Orange County Superior Court Judge Allen Baddour filed his written order Thursday dismissing the controversial case between the SCV and the UNC System and the Board of Governors and voiding the settlement.
The deal, negotiated behind closed doors, was originally settled in November 2019 and gave the SCV ownership of the statue and access to $2.5 million to preserve and display it.
Baddour had dismissed the lawsuit and voided the settlement in court last week and determined the SCV lacked the legal standing to sue, but he did not give his reasoning at the time.
Thursday’s order comes a few days after Ripley Rand, the UNC System’s attorney, wrote Baddour asking for help in getting Silent Sam back and seeking advice on next steps.
WHY WAS THE SILENT SAM CASE DISMISSED AND THE SETTLEMENT VOIDED?
Baddour’s written order filed Thursday says the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC), which raised funds for the Silent Sam statue and gifted it to UNC-Chapel Hill, no longer owned the statue once it was put on campus in 1913.
In order to pursue this lawsuit, the SCV obtained rights from the modern United Daughters of the Confederacy group to establish ownership of the statue. But there’s no evidence that the two UDC groups are directly related, according to the written order.
Baddour wrote that the SCV lacked the standing to bring the lawsuit against the UNC System because it did not establish that the modern UDC ever owned the statue and therefore, the SCV had no legal claim to it.
The UNC System owns Silent Sam and will again need to figure out what to do with the confederate soldier statue that was toppled by students in August 2018.
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SILENT SAM STATUE?
Baddour ordered that the SCV must return Silent Sam to the UNC system within 45 days, ensuring it is safely transported and delivered.
They will need to notify the court if they can’t agree on a plan to transfer the property within 30 days.
The Board of Governors will “work to find a lasting and lawful solution to the dispute over the monument,” Rand said in a statement after the hearing last week.
He said their goals in deciding what to do with the Confederate monument are “to protect public safety of the University community, restore normality to campus, and be compliant with the Monument Law.”
The 2015 monuments law bans removing, relocating or altering monuments, memorials and other “objects of remembrance” on public property without permission from the N.C. Historical Commission.
Students, faculty and community activists met in Chapel Hill where Confederate monument Silent Sam stood on campus. They berated UNC for giving the statue and $2.5 million to a Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter.
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MONEY?
The trustee of the $2.5 million fund was ordered to provide the court with an accounting of any money spent from the trust within 10 days. That includes the amount, date and payee of each transaction as well as any outstanding payments.
If there are no “unsatisfied obligations,” then the trustee is ordered to return the remaining balance to the UNC System within 10 days, the order states.
Baddour said the trustee can hold money in the trust for those outstanding payments and “seek leave of the Court before taking any action or disbursing reserved funds.”
SCV attorney Boyd Sturges said the SCV has already used $52,000 from the trust for his fees as an attorney in this case.
Once the accounting of all payments is sent to the court, the trust will be dissolved.
The Board of Governors is scheduled to meet Feb. 21 in Chapel Hill. The Silent Sam statue is not currently on the agenda.
It took you nearly a week to respond to my points, and yet despite being asked for facts, again you give us all your opinions with little to justify them beyond your personal experience. What's worse is that you contradict yourself constantly in this response. You claim to be upset about name calling and "slandering" people discussing the Civil War yet you use generalizations of the student protestors as shown in bold and keep calling them a mob without any sense of hypocrisy. Then again, since you referred to those studying at NC State rather than UNC where Silent Sam is, that alone shows us how deep your sense of accuracy is on this issue.
The rest of your rambling is just embarrassing even by your low standards. Manipulation by the Workers World Party (the actual name of the group, not World Worker's Party as you wrote)? Getting an endorsement hit from Facebook likes? And the judge's decision to overturn the contract wasn't arbitrary but based on the facts that ... ah, forget it, you won't read or acknowledge that anyway. Boy, for someone who claims to study human culture, you must be flunking your classes regularly.
And sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not attending that conference on the 28th. If you're the type that's attending it, that tells me all I need to know to avoid wasting my time and losing some IQ points.
Believe it or not I'm not on the internet every day. It is a fact they are a mob based on their behavior. It is a fact that when you call everyone who disagrees with you a racist without evidence you are engaging in slander, as you are by your implication when you say "all you need to know". Itis a fact the Worker's World Part has been engaged and even started many of the protests against the statues including Silent Sam. They were the group that destroyed the statue in Durham.
So I said NC state, oops. I'll own that one. I never stated I studied human culture. It was endorphin hit not endorsement, as in people are more interested in being liked than being correct.
The ad hominem and personal attack you engage in are a violation of board standards and I look forward to the mods correcting that behavior.
Believe it or not I'm not on the internet every day. It is a fact they are a mob based on their behavior. It is a fact that when you call everyone who disagrees with you a racist without evidence you are engaging in slander, as you are by your implication when you say "all you need to know". Itis a fact the Worker's World Part has been engaged and even started many of the protests against the statues including Silent Sam. They were the group that destroyed the statue in Durham.
So I said NC state, oops. I'll own that one. I never stated I studied human culture. It was endorphin hit not endorsement, as in people are more interested in being liked than being correct.
The ad hominem and personal attack you engage in are a violation of board standards and I look forward to the mods correcting that behavior.
Once again, you confuse your opinions as boldfaced above as being facts. The second sentence also has a big error in it. There's no place anywhere on this forum or anywhere else that I've said that everyone who disagrees with me is a racist. On the other hand, you have made the "they are a mob" blanket misstatement about those opposed to the statue repeatedly.
Glad you own the NC State error. Now how about for the second time, you misspelled Workers World Party?
I've stated the facts about the case, most recently that Judge Baddour found the actions by the UNC Board of Governors to be wrong and that he's ordered the North Carolina Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans or SCV to return the Silent Sam Confederate monument to the UNC System and that SCV had to return the remaining balance of the $2.5 million trust fund set up for the statue. That all came straight from the News & Observer article, as the link at the bottom showed.
If that reality infuriates you, that's your opinion. But saying that I'm engaging in "ad hominem and personal attack" (that should be "attacks," by the way) just by proving you wrong when I respond with sourced news reports ain't going to work here.
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