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This is a pretty interesting dialog...so let us continue a bit to put these comments into some perspective. Remember I am an RE Agent who sells lots of homes in HOAs but does not, and would, live in one...
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Originally Posted by Briolat21
As to affecting me personally, once I have jumped through the hoops, the CURRENT people on my HOA have been relatively rational. However, I worry that at any time (like the next election), the rational people will recede.
Why do I not run? Like others mentioned - I moved into this community to 1) have a place to live and 2) have a yard to garden. Not to become political. And I vote every year, every election - thanks very much. I also have ATTENDED every HOA meeting, since it formed.
Do I have time to run? No. Like most people between work and a very complicated home life involving caring for my elderly parents - I do not have time to be on these boards and do a good job. I think the people who are currently on the board are doing the best they can under the circumstances and so do NOT have a problem with them personally.
And you illustrate why many HOAs have problems staffing their board and often have to take anyone they can get. We have met the enemy and they is us...
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What I do have a problem with is all the people who *virtually* "nod wisely and say "should have read the documents!" as though to suggest all of us who are unhappy were idiots who got into a situation we didn't understand.
I read them. I asked about them. I even asked about the clauses that are now 'causing me pain. I was told those clauses were just put in "to protect the developer" and that they'd never been bothered with. Then *presto* the developer turns the HOA over to the community and *bam*.
The clauses don't generally cause much trouble. It is the rules put forth by the board and how they are interpreted. As I have said before it is sometimes the personality of the community. Two HOAs with identical rules can be utterly different. One quite harsh the other overly accomodating. Happens all the time. It can be changed by the way...particularly if the majority view and the board do not align well. If however the board aligns with the majority and you are unhappy? Move.
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My HOA CAN approve/disapprove your lawn furniture. Your BBQ grill and location. What you plant and where you plant it.
My problem is they will not SPELL out what is / is not allowable. And like many HOAs there is an "out" clause where they say "every decision is case by case and does not set precedent". So, conceivably - my neighbors could be given approval to plant a tree, and then I could ask under the exact same situation - and be denied. Or vice versa.
I do not like that. I have very lovely lawn furniture. It is all brand new, aluminum, with cushions. That does not matter. I do not want to ask for approval for it (its in my back yard, NO ONE should ever be in my back yard but me and my husband). I have pressed the HOA several times on "it says you MAY choose to regulate these items - are you going to" -- they will not give me a straight answer.
That is a new one. I am well familiar with the HOA docs in dozens of HOAs...at least passingly familiar with more than 50. I have never seen rules or regulations that read on backyard lawn furniture. The standard rule is that it is nobodies business if you can't see it from the street. And any rule would be considered a some what hardnosed HOA.
You could I suppose write such a rule...but I would expect it to get thrown out the first time anyone attempted to enforce it.
So you appear to have moved into the most restrictive HOA on earth. And others should be aware that your situation is pretty much unprecedented. I also am very skeptical that they can in fact enforce such a regulation without a detailed standard.
Have you tried simply refusing to conform and then fighting it out when they try and enforce it? If they fine you pay the fine and take them to small claims court. Claim the rule is arbitrary and capricious and undocumented and absurd. It is amazing how a couple of losses in the court will change the view.
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SO either you ask for approval for everything "I have a weed I want to pull, is that okay?" - which is a hassle. Or you run the "risk" that a neighbor with a grievance (the first 6 months of the HOA has been neighbors settling scores with other neighbors) will "turn" you in.
Now I realize that a lot of people who are worried about how their neighbors lives will affect their own think that HOAs are great.
But for a certain population of people, myself and husband included, they are nightmares.
Where I come from, people live civilly with one another. If you do not like their choice in shrubs, you simply deal with it. Where I live now, if you do not like their shrubs, or their number of cars, or the way they look at you - you file some imaginary complaint with the HOA. The HOA, instead of realizing these are nusciance complaints putting them in the middle of unhappy neighbors, then goes out and makes everything more complicated.
Now we part company. Such things as front yard shrubs...and often the lack there of...are fair game. The neighborhood has a look and has a right to having everyone meet a set of standards to maintain it.
Cars are another standard HOA irritant. You get the large family in the cul de sac who park 8 or 9 vehicles in it at night. If no rule you just have to grin and bear it...and it can be a problem. Or you get the part time mechanic who just does a friends car now and then but expands until he has twelve cars in various states of operation up and down the block. So some maintain a standard of all vehicles in the garages...and in some of the smaller communities that is a health and safety need. Fire trucks can't manuever in those streets with parked cars.
So some regulation in these areas may be desirable...
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My HOA does not allow satellite dishes. Never mind that there is a legal precedent that they cannot BAN them. So 80% of my community is in non-compliance over that. The legal precedent has been mentioned, but the HOA will not remove the ban from the CCR.
That is a different problem. Often it is quite impossible practically to change CC&Rs. And the satellitie rule is unenforcable as a matter of law. Like restrictive covenants that exist in older dwellings there simply is no way to remove them even though they are still operative.
Look and see what it takes. Often it requires the unanimous consent of every resident and their lenders....But even 50% may prove impossible in most HOAs. The board can never change CC&Rs.
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Joggers complained that we hadn't trimmed around trees after mowing. From there we ended up with a 30 item work list that the HOA came up with. None of these things are "IN" the CCRs - but since the CCRs give the HOA such a broad lattitude, I don't dare challenge them. Most of them are little items - but seriously, does the HOA need to regulate that I "move peonies" before Nov. 1? Or that rather than simply "trim around flower beds" it has become "install edging around flower beds". We did the trimming in one afternoon - however installing edging is expensive and TIME consuming. If we fail to comply, we can be fined, or eventually LIENED. Sorry - its ridiculous.
Say no and see what happens. The entertainment value is worth a $50 fine. And then sue them in small claims court for a pointless and arbirtrary rule.
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I know that there are a lot of great people here who are for HOAs. I get that. I am neither a malcontent, nor a derelict, nor an uneducated person - which is what being in the "anti-HOA" camp seems to brand you. I simply expected to live in a neighborhood where EGREGIOUS changes to the neigborhood character (like my neighbor deciding to put up a cell tower) would be prevented. Not a neighborhood where my choice of a juniper would elicit a 60 minute discussion, or the act of putting a shovel into the ground would label me a trouble maker, or where neighbors would join factions against one another. (There are pro -tree people and pro-lawn people). Egregious means "no 20ft pink dragon in a permanent installation in the front lawn". What I got is "every house must harmonize (which we will not define for you but you'll know if we disagree) with its neighbors forever and ever. Oh - and they'll define "neighbors" on a varying basis so sometimes its "immediate neighbors" sometimes its neighborhood, sometimes its a vague reference to a feeling they refer to.
Basically I feel that all control over the entire outside of my property has been taken away from me. I would have chosen a condo - had that been my desire. Instead I purchased and am taxed on a lovely single family home with an acre of land that I now have to fight to enjoy.
In fact we were told we must get approval to remove a bush from our tree line. A bush that cannot be distinguished from other bushes and is not visible from the street or from our neighbors houses. A bush that they would NEVER KNOW we removed, had I not casually mentioned the intention.
Enough. I humbly agree to disagree with those of you who are pro-HOA. For those who are not - I sympathize with your issues! For those who are *Thinking* of moving to an HOA community but feel uncomfortable - listen to your gut, it will not necessarily get better.
Again...call it stupid and refuse. Run it through the system. Go to the board meeting and raise hell.
These things can be handled. You just need to push back. And often not a lot.
If they are really willing to fight out these issues....you really don't what to live there do you?
This is a pretty interesting dialog...so let us continue a bit to put these comments into some perspective. Remember I am an RE Agent who sells lots of homes in HOAs but does not, and would, live in one...
And you illustrate why many HOAs have problems staffing their board and often have to take anyone they can get. We have met the enemy and they is us...
The clauses don't generally cause much trouble. It is the rules put forth by the board and how they are interpreted. As I have said before it is sometimes the personality of the community. Two HOAs with identical rules can be utterly different. One quite harsh the other overly accomodating. Happens all the time. It can be changed by the way...particularly if the majority view and the board do not align well. If however the board aligns with the majority and you are unhappy? Move.
That is a new one. I am well familiar with the HOA docs in dozens of HOAs...at least passingly familiar with more than 50. I have never seen rules or regulations that read on backyard lawn furniture. The standard rule is that it is nobodies business if you can't see it from the street. And any rule would be considered a some what hardnosed HOA.
You could I suppose write such a rule...but I would expect it to get thrown out the first time anyone attempted to enforce it.
So you appear to have moved into the most restrictive HOA on earth. And others should be aware that your situation is pretty much unprecedented. I also am very skeptical that they can in fact enforce such a regulation without a detailed standard.
Have you tried simply refusing to conform and then fighting it out when they try and enforce it? If they fine you pay the fine and take them to small claims court. Claim the rule is arbitrary and capricious and undocumented and absurd. It is amazing how a couple of losses in the court will change the view.
Now we part company. Such things as front yard shrubs...and often the lack there of...are fair game. The neighborhood has a look and has a right to having everyone meet a set of standards to maintain it.
Cars are another standard HOA irritant. You get the large family in the cul de sac who park 8 or 9 vehicles in it at night. If no rule you just have to grin and bear it...and it can be a problem. Or you get the part time mechanic who just does a friends car now and then but expands until he has twelve cars in various states of operation up and down the block. So some maintain a standard of all vehicles in the garages...and in some of the smaller communities that is a health and safety need. Fire trucks can't manuever in those streets with parked cars.
So some regulation in these areas may be desirable...
That is a different problem. Often it is quite impossible practically to change CC&Rs. And the satellitie rule is unenforcable as a matter of law. Like restrictive covenants that exist in older dwellings there simply is no way to remove them even though they are still operative.
Look and see what it takes. Often it requires the unanimous consent of every resident and their lenders....But even 50% may prove impossible in most HOAs. The board can never change CC&Rs.
Say no and see what happens. The entertainment value is worth a $50 fine. And then sue them in small claims court for a pointless and arbirtrary rule.
Again...call it stupid and refuse. Run it through the system. Go to the board meeting and raise hell.
These things can be handled. You just need to push back. And often not a lot.
If they are really willing to fight out these issues....you really don't what to live there do you?
So you think having to sue to plant flowers in your backyard is reasonable?
I understand what you are saying. The problem is, I do not want to fight. I should not have to fight. However, because I am in an HOA community (I agree, mine might have some of the most ridiculous rules ever!), fighting may be my only option.
That's why - if your personality is like ours - we just want to live nicely and be left alone - an HOA might not be for you.
Yes. We would move, were the market to recover, and my elderly parents no longer be a concern (we just moved them in, we are not going to voluntarily move them again). So - we're stuck for a while, and we will suck it up while we are here.
But, I will not ever say that HOAs are innocuous after this experience. I maintain, if you are the sort of person that wants to have control of your environment (your personal environment - not your neighbors) - they are a bad idea. If you are willing to cede control of your environment to ensure that the neighbors house looks identical to yours forever - welcome to HOA heaven. (of course you may end up in one of the HOAs that doesn't enforce anything - so you might still be unhappy).
I live in one of those big master-planned communities that consists of dozens of smaller subdivisions and communities. About 40% of the neighborhoods have HOAs; 60% do not. We used to have a voluntary development-wide HOA whose responsibilities were largely a) maintain the landscaping and greenways along arterial routes through town because the county thought that mowing the grass every two weeks was an acceptable level of service and we wanted more b) work with the state DOT on road projects that went through town and c) be the contact point with the county on other local issues since the area of 10K people is otherwise unincorporated.
After a couple years of falling revenues and a lot of obstruction from the county (they were terrified we were going to incorporate into a city and be able to recapture property taxes locally instead of us continuing to subsidize other parts of the area where they do deity knows what with the money) we converted the old voluntary HOA into a special taxing district. Residences pay about $70/year, and the tax district does help my area maintain its distinct identity. With more money coming in every year, they're doing a better job at their original mission. And since they're a government unit, they have a lot more restrictions on their power than what a HOA is allowed to do, and they cannot expand their power without it going on the ballot in a regular public election. If you go to their web site, their 'letters' section explains how they do not deal with code enforcement issues or beaver dams on private property and here's who you need to talk to at the county or Fish and Wildlife instead.
It works out well for us- the benefits of a HOA, but with restrictions on power so they can't go all micromanaging control freak. And we've had probably the lowest drop in property values of anywhere in the region during the bubble pop.
This paints all HOAs with a broad brush. I live in an HOA that's been around for 40+ years without a single change other than annual assessment which was and remains capped at 5% a year. No way could my HOA dictate my patio furniture or choice of landscape material without a majority vote. Not going to happen.
No two HOAs are alike.
I think, however, that people moving into a HOA need to know the possibilities. For example, you may never have a problem with your home that could have been discovered by an inspection when purchasing it, but would you recommend to your clients that they NOT get an inspection because most folks wouldn't have a problem develop and so they should play the odds?
Being informed about the possibilities before making such a decision would seem to be a good thing. Then you can make an informed decision whether to go forward or not.
I understand what you are saying. The problem is, I do not want to fight. I should not have to fight. However, because I am in an HOA community (I agree, mine might have some of the most ridiculous rules ever!), fighting may be my only option.
That's why - if your personality is like ours - we just want to live nicely and be left alone - an HOA might not be for you.
Yes. We would move, were the market to recover, and my elderly parents no longer be a concern (we just moved them in, we are not going to voluntarily move them again). So - we're stuck for a while, and we will suck it up while we are here.
But, I will not ever say that HOAs are innocuous after this experience. I maintain, if you are the sort of person that wants to have control of your environment (your personal environment - not your neighbors) - they are a bad idea. If you are willing to cede control of your environment to ensure that the neighbors house looks identical to yours forever - welcome to HOA heaven. (of course you may end up in one of the HOAs that doesn't enforce anything - so you might still be unhappy).
I would think that HOA is not for you. But the other 90% of the HOAs would have worked fine.
While going no HOA sounds like a simple solution it is not. In upper middle Las Vegas you probably have no reasonable option available other than build your own and, even that, is hard. Any lot that is prepared and has utilities in is almost certainly covered by CC&Rs. Note that CC&Rs in the hands of a determined person are at least as deadly as an HOA.
You can consider older but you also will find that even nice tracts here from 30 years ago have restrictions...and sometimes harsh ones.
We use a standard disclosure on HOAs that says quite clearly that HOAs have substantial power and may use it including the ability to lien your home. I don't think anyone really reads it until they have a dispute with an HOA and then discover that they were precisely warned of just such a problem Agents don't tell the client the worse case story...because that is not what the client can expect. That is a very unlikely outcome. Homes are filled with dozens of things that can burn a buyer...but they are all very unlikely. So they are mentioned but not dwelled on. The bad neighbor is actually the worst and is almost never mentioned.
I'm disgusted with the HOA. How can one sleep at night knowing that there is a chance the 6 year old can be taken away and put into a foster care? This is outrageous.
I'm sure there are kids coming and going in the retirement community all the time, no? I'm sure many of the seniors have grandkids coming over. Or is that not allowed?
I know this is just one story, but these HOAs have way too much control and power. It's insanity.
Bad example for the HOA question. Senior Citizen HOAs march to a different drummer and a different set of laws.
The grandparents in this case have been fighting the inevitable for 5 plus years. In the last couple it has become difficult to sell. But now it is the Associations fault they did not move when first asked.
I went through this with a 16.5 year old whose parents were ready to move to an adult community where they bought. The community held their ground and the people were unable to move.
I would virtually guarantee enforcement of this rule in almost any signifcant senior citizen community. Don't go there if you think you might catch a couple of grandkids on rebound.
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