Epidemic of Low Confidence in American Males (female, responsible, average)

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by MortimerC

Babyboomers really have no room to call anyone selfish. Probably the most decadent reckless generation in recent memory.

So I'm a baby boomer? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Oh, and by the way: I didn't call anyone "selfish". I said we have a culture of entitlement. If you can't see the difference, you really ought to spend less time thinking about what "society" owes you and more about what YOU can bring to the table.

A baby boomer? Hahaha! Thanks, I haven't laughed so hard since the last time I visited CD.

Originally Posted by MortimerC

*edit. men definitely build planes, design skyscrapers and fight in wars. careless statement

Do YOU build planes, design skyscrapers and fight in wars? I don't mean "you" as in "men", I mean you personally. So, do you?

By your logic, since some women are great, celebrated beauties, every woman should have supreme confidence in her looks. My oh my, what do they teach you kids in school these days? NOT how to think logically, it seems. (Hey, since you want to believe me old and irrelevant, I guess I should play along, right?)

[JustJulia]

Originally Posted by MortimerC

Julia, I'm glad you remembered me! i'm a little new to the party, but being a millenial myself perhaps I can share some insights.

1) Feminism. The thought that women are equal to men has been drilled into our heads since preschool. The very paradigm of the man approaching the woman seems contradictory, why should a man do all the work, why do I have to start every interaction on account of being a man? Something doesn't sit right with that picture.

Ah, another person who believe men do all the work. This topic is hashed to death in a few other threads. Here is my view, in short: it takes just as much effort and courage for a woman to allow a stranger to approach her and be alone with her as it does for a man to do those things. I'm sorry some women are real jerks about it. We get our share of jerks too.

Originally Posted by MortimerC

Which brings us to number 2

2) Nobody told us this is the way it was. We grew up expecting partnerships, and have been flung into a world where we act upon 1950's ideals. We don't have parents, schools, churches teaching us the way to get women. You have to remember, this is very culturally driven, women are still taught the rules of courtship by thier mothers and are ready when the game starts. Men are caught completely offguard and it takes a while to figure it out by ourselves. Some never figure it out, or believe that it goes against what we have been taught and choose not to pursue.

So young women being indoctrinated by their mothers, while young men are being taught nothing at all, not even by those same mothers? I know boys need father figures, and I'm sure that some posters here are ready to blame this one on feminists too.

Originally Posted by MortimerC

3) The attitudes of women. I had a girl tell me that to get her my "game" had to be tight. ow, my "game" is as tight as anyone elses but when i'm looking for partner, it is really offensive to be tested by that standard, not only that, but it should be offensive to the young woman as well! But lo and behold, we have a lot of women who judge men based on thier swagger or social standing than on the merits of the men.

All I can say is stop dating those type of women. Guys who pursue rude, entitled women get what they asked for. Same with women who chase bad boys.

I think the concept of "game" is asinine, and I'd avoid any guy who seriously used that terminology.

Originally Posted by MortimerC

which brings us to point 4

4) Women no longer need men to provide for them, so the path of "get a good job, marry a nice girl, provide for the family" while not dead is slowly dying. If women no longer need to choose men off of this then they are left choosing by one criteria...genetics. So now we have girls who would rather share a...hate to use the term "alpha" then live a nice monogomous life with a provider.

I can understand this up to a point, but the two-income family is standard for the middle class. Perhaps some men want a housewife who will raise the children--there's nothing wrong with that, but I hear a lot of complaining from guys who say they want that, but go on to kvetch about having to spend money on women. Or they believe that the money they earn is theirs, and if the marriage breaks up for whatever reason, their wife (and children by extension) deserves nothing at all and should just get lost. Women don't want to have that kind of insecurity.

I hate to use the term "alpha" also. I don't believe it pertains to human beings. Please don't buy into that "game" crap, seriously.

[MortimerC]

Originally Posted by Redisca

So I'm a baby boomer? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Oh, and by the way: I didn't call anyone "selfish". I said we have a culture of entitlement. If you can't see the difference, you really ought to spend less time thinking about what "society" owes you and more about what YOU can bring to the table.

A baby boomer? Hahaha! Thanks, I haven't laughed so hard since the last time I visited CD.

Do YOU build planes, design skyscrapers and fight in wars? I don't mean "you" as in "men", I mean you personally. So, do you?

I don't strive to be a contrived social construction of a "real man". In answering your question I would be agreeing with it's premise in which I certainly do not.

Men have done and continue to do many great things in and for society. The amount of work one must put in to obtain a decent lifestyle is much greater today than it was when one could get a cushy union job with a highschool diploma and be taken care of for life.
We live in a era of hyper competition.

What I see is men striving to be the best they can be, do they all have the tools to achieve what they dream, no, but that's never been the case. Only difference now is that where average used to be good enough it no longer is. I think you've read one too many newsweek articles about non competition and entitlement. We still had dodgeball and 1st place trophies when I grew up, save that rebuke for the UPCOMING generation. Millenials are overachievers if anything

[MortimerC]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

Ah, another person who believe men do all the work. This topic is hashed to death in a few other threads. Here is my view, in short: it takes just as much effort and courage for a woman to allow a stranger to approach her and be alone with her as it does for a man to do those things. I'm sorry some women are real jerks about it. We get our share of jerks too.

Perhaps, but what happens when women stop living up to their end of the bargain. When they don't allow strangers to approach and be alone. Then what? I do fine with the ladies, but it is ridiculous sometimes. It's really hard to explain but just imagine. You ask a girl out, and then an endless barrage of games and tests begin. A little hard to get never hurt anyone, but women are seriously overplaying their hands, this is why you have these guys whining saying ENOUGH.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

So young women being indoctrinated by their mothers, while young men are being taught nothing at all, not even by those same mothers? I know boys need father figures, and I'm sure that some posters here are ready to blame this one on feminists too.

Well see, first of all women and their daughters have different relationships than women and their sons. Which, obviously depends on the family so I wont quibble about that too much, but you have to understand. Mothers giving thier sons advice is the problem, because they give horrible advice. The advice you give to women about dating is NOT the advice you give to young men. Be "nice"...come on weve heard the cliche about the nice guy, its a sad but painfully true fact that that behavior won't give you many women, the reasons for that could spawn 12 threads.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

All I can say is stop dating those type of women. Guys who pursue rude, entitled women get what they asked for. Same with women who chase bad boys.

I think the concept of "game" is asinine, and I'd avoid any guy who seriously used that terminology.

But there are way more single men than single women in our age range, you can say stop dating those kind of women, but where does that leave the average guy? Alone and bitter is probably where, or ambivilent about dating in general a "if she comes to me i'll respond" approach, you see these types right here on this very forum. There's no balance at all. So you have a good portion of young women basically acting like jerks, adding to the fact that single men ALREADY outnumber women without this being the case, and you have a shortage of good available women out there.

Originally Posted by JustJulia

I can understand this up to a point, but the two-income family is standard for the middle class. Perhaps some men want a housewife who will raise the children--there's nothing wrong with that, but I hear a lot of complaining from guys who say they want that, but go on to kvetch about having to spend money on women. Or they believe that the money they earn is theirs, and if the marriage breaks up for whatever reason, their wife (and children by extension) deserves nothing at all and should just get lost. Women don't want to have that kind of insecurity.

I hate to use the term "alpha" also. I don't believe it pertains to human beings. Please don't buy into that "game" crap, seriously.

Of course, it's a give and take, and there is a disconnect somewhere

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by MortimerC

I don't strive to be a contrived social construction of a "real man". In answering your question I would be agreeing with it's premise in which I certainly do not.

So, once again: Why should people derive confidence from that achievements and good qualities of other people?

Originally Posted by MortimerC

Men have done and continue to do many great things in and for society. The amount of work one must put in to obtain a decent lifestyle is much greater today than it was when one could get a cushy union job with a highschool diploma and be taken care of for life.
We live in a era of hyper competition.

What I see is men striving to be the best they can be, do they all have the tools to achieve what they dream, no, but that's never been the case. Only difference now is that where average used to be good enough it no longer is. I think you've read one too many newsweek articles about non competition and entitlement. We still had dodgeball and 1st place trophies when I grew up, save that rebuke for the UPCOMING generation. Millenials are overachievers if anything

Whatever it is YOU read, it obviously hasn't taught you how to assess people -- just stupid stereotypes. I am not a baby boomer. I am barely an X-er. In fact, there is a good chance I am younger than you. I've never had a cushy union job. Neither did my parents, nor their parent's parents. I am an immigrant, and I spent my adolescence in dire poverty, such that most of you, middle class brats, can't even begin to imagine. You think that just because you didn't slide into an overpaid job, a mansion, and a Stepford wife as a reward for perfect attendance, you know the hard side of life? I am the wrong kind of person to make that argument to, pal.

I didn't read about entitlement -- I see it every day. I see it in posts such as yours, in ideas that you deserve a wife of your choice just because you are male, that women rob you of confidence by taking "your" jobs, earning "your" money and no longer needing to attach themselves to some man, any man out of necessity to have food in their mouths.

[MortimerC]

First all about the confidence thing. why do you hate men so much to think that they arn't doing anything worthy to be proud of. Can you give me some evidence of this? I would posit that men work harder for less now then they have since the early 1900's.

Confidence is not "what can I build how big are my muscles". It's a knowledge of onself and understanding and trust of ones capabilities. I think your whole construction is severely lacking. Men are as confident as ever in themselves. their abilities to set and obtain goals and belief in oneself. What they don't have is false confidence, the confidence of previous generations, gained through nothing but societal rules and norms.

Originally Posted by Redisca

I didn't read about entitlement -- I see it every day. I see it in posts such as yours, in ideas that you deserve a wife of your choice just because you are male, that women rob you of confidence by taking "your" jobs, earning "your" money and no longer needing to attach themselves to some man, any man out of necessity to have food in their mouths.

Cool good job immigrating to a country then bashing it's inhabitants, i'm sure the boat goes both ways if you don't like it here.

Oh, looks like we both agree that it is happening. I don't know why we're arguing, you agree with me, you just don't think it's a bad thing. Plus you contradict yourself. Please be a little more clear in your argument, you seem to be saying three different things

You're falling into the trap you admonish me for big red. You know nothing about my lifestyle. I wish I grew up middle class. But whether I did or didn't doesn't negate the points I was making, all of which you agree are valid.

I said nothing about women taking anything from me, all I did was note how the dynamic was changing, you agree with me that it is.


If you are an Xer you are not younger than me....sorry

[MortimerC]

Originally Posted by Redisca

I didn't read about entitlement -- I see it every day. I see it in posts such as yours, in ideas that you deserve a wife of your choice just because you are male, that women rob you of confidence by taking "your" jobs, earning "your" money and no longer needing to attach themselves to some man, any man out of necessity to have food in their mouths.

This right here is the problem. This is how young women think today. See how she talks to me, like she is above me?

Like she is above the average man, for some reason, because her parents were smart enough to hop on a boat when she was a kid, she is so much greater and wiser.

See her disdain for the average hard working man. He isn't man enough. he has nothing to be confident about because he didn't build a skyscraper? like somehow everyone was an architect in previous times or something.

I'm not talking about ANY man honey, I'm talking about the man that you deserve, an equal. But you're so busy telling me how great you are to notice my argument.

I'm sorry but there is such a thing as an average women, but when she acts like this...why bother?

[fleetiebelle]

See how she talks to me, like she is above me?

Like she is above the average man, for some reason, because her parents were smart enough to hop on a boat when she was a kid, she is so much greater and wiser.

So you're saying that you're automatically "above" her because you're an average man? That Redisca doesn't know her place because she's speaking her mind and disagreeing with you? How is this not a sense of entitlement on your part? Keep digging, my friend.

[virgode]

Originally Posted by Avienne

My theory is that the generation behind mine--the Millennials--were raised in the era of "everyone's a winner!" PC esteem-building nonsense. Add helicopter "not MY precious angel" parents to that, and they are unaccustomed to being told "no."

So, when they get rejected, they take it much harder than they should. They never learned how to fail, learn from it, and grow, and they never learned how to shake off a loss. They take rejection entirely too much to heart, with the result that it shakes their confidence and makes them hesitant to try again.

Originally Posted by Galagaone

You can bet if a man started a female bashing thread like this it'd be gone in no time flat. Why does CD hate men so much..?

I agree Avienne that psychology is part of the problem, Another issue no one has touched on and what I see as a large contributer is a generation of men raised in a home either without a father and no male role model or poor male role models.

Galagone
I'm not certain, It seems the thread was started by a male and I don't see the male bashing you're referring to....this is what you want to believe to justify your low opinion of women and remarks. I've noticed it more in the 50+ generation of men more than any other.

[MortimerC]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

So you're saying that you're automatically "above" her because you're an average man? That Redisca doesn't know her place because she's speaking her mind and disagreeing with you? How is this not a sense of entitlement on your part? Keep digging, my friend.

Originally Posted by MortimerC

I'm not talking about ANY man honey, I'm talking about the man that you deserve, an equal. But you're so busy telling me how great you are to notice my argument.

You either didn't read my posts or didn't read them well.

before you address me please take the time to read my posts. quoting a section would also help in that I could see where the confusion arose from.

I've provided the segment where I say the opposite of what you accuse me of.

Originally Posted by virgode

I agree Avienne that psychology is part of the problem, Another issue no one has touched on and what I see as a large contributer is a generation of men raised in a home either without a father and no male role model or poor male role models.

I touched on this.

The role model part plays a huge factor. the other psychological stuff is BS. millenials are hyper competative if anything. id actually say we have the opposite problem, being taught we can do anything, and not folding our cards soon enough. But what do I know, i'm just the only poster who's grown up in that generation.