Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerNation
JerZ, I'm not fond of Americans and esp. the women here. I'm upfront and honest and don't hide my stances. What I see has been well represented in the posts here in this thread. We have a nation of spoiled, rotten brats and I don't care how hard you think you worked. People here take so much for granted and have an over-reliance on the latest things and fads.
You jumped all over this thread and I have no doubt you're a feminist. No wonder men in the USA have had enough with the bull****. It's too much of them to vent their frustrations without having a so-called tough girl tell them to work harder and grow up. Blah, blah, blah. I guess that's not your fault, since you grew up in the culture - you're just a product of your own environment, no matter how tainted it is.
Sorry, can't help being a prick sometimes. You seemed to deserve it, after reading your posts here.
Have a nice night and day, dear.
P.S. I'd be curious to see the OP respond to this thread at some point.
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Well, here is the OP with his response to the many issues:
First, lets get things straight, sorry to nitpick:
While the virgin part is true, I am by no means jobless and completely unmotivated. I live in Manhattan, New York City and the definition that a quality woman seems to use for a guy that is "financially established" does not fit me.
MY CURRENT STATUS: Live at home with folks since we have a rent stabilized apartment in an area close to downtown( I do pay have the rent). I am currently employed at a city agency office job making for salary about 30,000 a year. While, I am a cut above some unemployed people that I know, I completely flunk the test of “being financially established” just as much as the people who are actually unemployed or who make minimum wage. I am not financially established in the sense that I am on a definitive career track with high income potential. I at least have some level of job security and health insurance. However, I am not on a career path currently for a variety of reasons that establishes and shows my actual potential or makes me “financially established.” While the media can at times be very strereotypical the dating scene in Manhattan does resemble “Sex and the City”
If you have ever watched that show, you can understand that I flunk the test of what women would call “financially established” just as much as some totally unemployed people that I know of. Due to scoring very very high on a civil service test and some very good luck and timing, I am lucky enough to have the job I have now. There are some people who two years ago that were big shot investment bankers trying to get jobs where I work paying 18,000 a year!!
However, just as there is no real difference between a guy with 100 million and 200 million in terms of being considered rich, someone with my current status above flunks the test of being "financially established at thirty" just as much as an actual unemployed person.
Of course, unemployed in todays economy does not mean unmotivated. There are many people in this city who have had more career success than me who caught a bad break and are now unemployed.
When a woman wants a guy who is financially established it means High income earning corporate professional, lawyer, doctor, investment banker or maybe outside of Manhattan very successful blue collar self employed businessman. He better have his own luxury apartment also. I would say perhaps it means at least 70,000 a year in a professional, entrepreneurial, or highly skilled trade. Perhaps 50,000 is a bare bare minimum in other regions of the country. The figures may be less in the middle of the country, but 30,000 in New York City signified loser to women.
My Own political views:
It is correct that the erosion of the middle class began before 2008. I am a loyal Democrat and am sick and tired of people jumping saying that Obama has failed the economy. The problems in this economy were caused by the GOP pre 2008. In early 2008, I had another government job surverying New York City employment data. There were many low wage service workers and many Investment Banker types but little in between. As a nation, we have an excessive short term results oriented mentality The same sick mentality that causes a woman to look at a guys immediate financial status and make a judgement as to overall qualities, is the same mentality that caused Americans to jump from the Bush GOP to the Obama change bandwagon and now to the tea party. They look at our nation and see a weak economy and blame Obama for the last two years. Yet, how do they not know that Obama’s reform of the economy will not eventually work. Things take time. The worsening of our economy in the last two years is based on the possible residual effects of GWB and some other factors, yet Obama takes the blame. I guarantee you, if the tea partiers win and the economy happens to get better in the next two years, they will get all the credit even if the economy improving was the result of Obama working hard the last two years. Enough on politics.
Social Skills: The part of the brain that affects social savvy is like any part of the brain weaker in some people and stronger in others. There are some people who literally have developmental disorders affecting primarily social skills. These are called Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Asperger’s Syndrome. So, my analogy to developmental disorders like Down Syndrome is actually correct. Just like some people have developmental delays in reading ability, math ability, athletic ability, some people’s social development may be naturally weaker. For instance, I would have to say that some tech types and academic types have naturally impaired social ability. Additionally, children with Asperger’s Syndrome are often picked on in class by other students.
It is also wrong to say that impaired social ability means inability to get or have empathy for someone. It depends on the serverity of the deficit. Since such a deficit lies on a continuum.
Someone may be empathetic but simply lack the personality style and fast based social intelligence to be able to ask a girl out with the exact right timing, exact right smooth confident tone of voice and body language. A guy who is socially awkward in high school, regardless of how much or how little empathy he has will lose out to the more socially smooth jock. As a result, he will never get any dating experience. In college, because he was unable to develop dating experience in high school, he will be rejected by girls and be made fun of for still being a virgin. In his twenties the same thing. Because he did not establish himself in high school and lose his virginity, no woman will want to date him because he is a virgin in college. When he reaches his twenties
Women will not want him because he is inexperienced and socially awakward. Later on, since he had limited experience in college, his limited experience will make him less wanted. The types of guys who are virgins at age 30 are usually the types of decent kids who were picked on as children and beaten up on the playground. They just are not socially fast thinking conformists who are quick on their feet. For instance, maybe they continued to enjoy watching He-man and the Masters of the Universe when it no longer was cool or stuck with video games when the other kids moved on to dating. What is wrong with moving at your own pace to a certain degree. For instance, why should you switch interests at age 13 because all the other boys do. What is wrong with waiting until age 15? Additionally, a guy who is still a virgin at age 30 might be a decent commited caring person, but just is simply not savvy enough to walk into a nightclub and ask a girl out with the exact right tone of voice, confident body language etc.
Sometimes inexperienced people may make better mates because they are not savy enough to cheat, not as mean, etc. Maybe such a guy just lacked whatever traits were considered sexy in his high school giving him a lack of experience. Perhaps he was geeky but still had some social empathy and ability to be a good friend to a person over the long term, etc.
AGAIN, the type of guy who is great at asking girls out and making moves on girls may or may not be a good relationship partner and a guy who is too shy, inexperienced or socially awkward to be good at attracting women might still be someone you could grow old with.
One reason why our economy is so screwed up is that employers don’t want to hire unemployed people because they assume that if they are unemployed something must be wrong with them ( They could actually just have been unlucky to be laid off when a company went bankrupt, they could be great at their job but not interview well). Such people then end up unable to get jobs and have an even longer record of unemployment and their skills atrophy further. In our country we need to give people who just have not been picked for careers or relationships a chance.
As to the developmental disability analogy, as a psychology major I stand by the fact that research has shown that the part of the brain which affects social skills is different for some Asperger, Autistic, and even some non labeled people who lack social skills. The type of kid who was always picked last for pick up games, etc. The type of person who often is a victim of office politics.
Adding to their difficulty, such people often have a speech accent that actually resembles a Down syndrome person. Even some high functioning Autistics. Ever watch Temple Grandin get interviewed.
And no, I am not saying with them because they may be nice people. I am saying that if you got to know a guy as a friend who had some good character qualities, someone you could be friends with over a long time period, but they were just not the socially smoothest person in the world or because of their Geeky/ Asperger’s persona they were socially inexperienced, if you could get along with them long term, why would it matter if they did not ask you out in a confident socially smooth way or had nerd mannerisms, made some social mistakes, as long as they had empathy. If you became friends with a guy who was a thirty year old virgin who has some good long term relationship character traits, and the reason why he had no experience was because he just lacked shallow game or had an autistic mannerism/accent why not give him a chance. The qualities to be a husband sharing dinner with twenty years into a marriage or to be two old people helping each other with canes are totally different than the qualities needed to be smooth at asking girls out or having game. Just like some politicians might be good at talking their way into office but be horrible rulers and vice versa.
What is wrong with being a socially un savy nerd or even autistic?
Career thoughts:
In this complex world, what is wrong with not finding your true niche by age 30. Let us forget about Billionaire Larry Ellison for a minute and deal with two personal case stories I know of:
You wanted to know if I talked to any real people from the sixties. Lets try two:
My cousin from the west coast: He spent his twenties and half of his thirties as a sixties hippie dropping acid and supporting the Allende government of Chile ( we know what happened to them) He was a hard line Marxist. He dropped out of college, got involved in communism for a few years, while living off his folks. At his folks insistence, he did go back to college and then hid out in graduate school studying psychology where he get a Masters. However, he decided that academic life was not for him. He then got an MBA from Wharton and was a Finance suit for two years. However, he decided that he was not the corporate type. So for a decade and a half he drifted in and out of school and jobs. He also tried sociology graduate school and being an accounting lecturer. After leaving his corporate job he then got into traveling the third world on his parents time. However, eventually he ran out of money and went back to the states where he started driving a cab in a famous west coast city. Being an open minded intellectual type, he somehow came across one of the most famous tech companies of all time when they were just in the more early stages ( Mid Eighties). He then got involved of course owning stock in it and now is a multimillionaire. He then sold off his investments, investing a combo of local companies as well as doing deals with some African partners.
If you look back at his life history, he did drift, but everything he did came together in the end. His two years at Wharton and two years trying corporate life gave him some fiancé savy. However, his deep years as an intellectual slacker made him great at high level conceptual reasoning and his years traveling the third world made him some contacts and knowledge which helped him expand his empire.
My moms high school classmate. He was a sixties surfing and scuba slacker in San Diego for several years after MIT. However, one day a friend said to him that he should combine his knowledge of technology and passion for the ocean to do some ocean based technology research. He did and later somehow caught the Sattelite boom and is now worth 150 million.
For a less wealthy example, I used to have a best friend during high school ( a school employee in his mid twenties), who spent many years after college working minimum wage jobs at my school (helping teachers out with stuff) and weekends parking cars. His only passion was to one day be a rock star. Sadly, he lacked whatever it took to be a great rock singer. However, he had some great personality qualities ( passion for whatever he did), great people skills, could never lose at an argument, intelligent intellectual, etc. He decided to at age 33 law school. He now makes mid six figures suing companies that have defrauded investors. At age 27, he was just a wannabe rock star working minimum wage jobs. Now he has excelled at being a lawyer!!
So, what if at age 30, he did not yet find hjs niche.
Many women when they hear a guy does not have a job or is underemployed will automatically say no. However, there are three types of such unemployed or underemployed people:
Have a good track record in a career, but due to the economy is past two years had recent bad luck. Someone who was an investment banker for five years and now works as store clerk to survive probaly flunks the financially established test, but is not the same as the long term career store clerk.
Just have not found their niche yet. That includes the above examples and myself. I don’t plan to stay in my 30,000 a year job for life, but I am not sure what my next step will be. I can’t instantly make a choice. Rather I must research carefully, network, try out ideas on a small scale etc. It will likely take several years to make a switch for various reasons.
The truly unmotivated types: People who have no qualities that could even potentially make them successful later on, are not trying in anyway and just play video games all day long.
To judge what a guys' true potential is, women should really to to know his abilities, character traits and full life history rather than just his on paper immediate financial/career status. There are guys who are currently unemployed that may one day make more money than me and guys who have better jobs than men currently that I may outdo.
Again, I flunk the “financially established” test as in having a successful high earning career, but at least I am exploring options to one day change to something else and I did try some ventures and such.
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Good night and sleep tight in your paranoid little bubble, dear. (They really ARE all out to get you.)
