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Couples are going to do whatever works for them - and it will be different all across the board. You're trying to make a comparison between things that are not comparable
The thing is that women expecting/demanding men to do something that is gender specific is totally acceptable but having men demanding women to do something that before it was gender-specific is wrong, that’s what I don’t get.
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No one has said that a women cannot hold a door. Good Lord. I hold a door for men all the freakin' time...as do most women. What, are you blind? But pulling out a chair is simply a matter of chivalry. If I'm pulling out a chair for a man, then he's either elderly or sick
Can a man and a woman open their door? Of course. Can they do it for each other? Sure. Why does the courtesy and nice gestures stop there and become gender-specific? If a woman was elderly or sick, I would feel pressured to go pull their chair. Still, women are entitled for that treatment and not the other way around. There’s no gesture out there that’s specific from woman to man, is there?
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You ever hear of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? I totally get that you don't like the traditional burdens that society places on you for being a man
And vice versa. When I talk about equality I mean it. I didn’t grow up seeing my father seating down reading the newspaper while my mom did house chores. I didn’t grow up seeing my mom depending on my father for money. Both worked inside and outside the house. My father would even do the cooking depending on who got home first. There were no gender specific chores or responsibilities at home really. I thought that was nice.
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That comes across loud and clear. Sorry dude. Get a sex change operation and be happier.
Rather see equality. You say that since you are a woman who enjoys being in the receiving end. Enjoy. Lucky you.
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Originally Posted by *VaNiLlaGoRrilLa*
I’m totally with you. Women’s lib and equality seems to only go as far as women want it to.
Suggest we can’t earn as much as you and there’s an outrage, suggest a woman proposes marriage and there’s even more an outrage. It’s so conditional. I’m a woman and even I’m confused!
That’s right VanillaGorilla. When women talk about equality I wonder if they really want it or just whatever benefits them. Why can’t things revolve around both? I am talking about BOTH not just one gender's benefit.
When women talk about equality I wonder if they really want it or just whatever benefits them.
Right! It’s like they’re saying “You’d better not suggest I stay in the kitchen all day long!!!! But you want ME to propose? Are you mad???”
Not going against the sisterhood here ladies, just saying. It doesn’t make sense. I don’t think I expect a man to do anything but be a good person to me. Don’t gamble our money away or disrespect me.
All that he should do this, she should do that nonsense is just that.
Last edited by *VaNiLlaGoRrilLa*; 12-06-2010 at 05:45 PM..
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,150,245 times
Reputation: 11862
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Originally Posted by onihC
Many career women can totally see it as something insulting for someone to dare himself say that a woman should do housechores and stay in the kitchen but the same women would be all for having men propose marriage, buy them their ring, go down on his knees, etc. So I ask again, which traditions do we keep and which ones go?
Exactly. Men want to be ready financially, have a career/degree, have a house, etc. have it all ready to provide and take care of their woman. Not sure about women.
Of course women will be happy with the man doing the proposal and all the other “traditional manly” things. Can’t imagine women going against it. There may be an exception out there of course.
That is IF she asks which we all know its not as common as men asking women out. Still, from the Asian women that have asked me out I don’t use that as an excuse to just sit back and enjoy the freebies. I do my part. And if she just totally doesn’t accept my contribution I take care of the next one. I don’t wait months or “later on”, I make sure I do it on the next one.
If women are strong enough to carry big shopping bags, go to the gym, dance all night long, etc. I don’t see how opening a door for a man, bringing him a chair, holding an umbrella, etc. could be so difficult. I can understand trying to carry something beyond their capabilities but as for mutual chivalry, don’t see what holds women from reciprocating those gestures. Women are seen as the gender that is more suited for being nurturing. Wouldn’t it be pretty bad for men to say “Here, the baby can’t stop crying” just because it is assumed women are more nurturing? I mean, it’s a gender difference, right? How about having men do their part and just try to calm the crying baby instead of just taking the easy comfy way out while they play the man gender-card?
What the PC police decree and what the average Jack or Jill on the street believe are two different things. The media makes it out that most men and women actually want to be equals; the reality is, centuries of Western culture, biology and upbringing are entrenched into our brains to such an extent that even the most progressive among us, deep down, holds these societal expectations as 'home truths', whether they agree with them or not.
There's an old-fashioned view that chivalry was entirely innocent and related to general politeness/etiquette in society...
The reality was, chivalry is just the male sucking up to the female in order to reproduce. There's no LOGICAL reason for a man pulling out a chair or opening a door for a female who is perfectly capable of doing so, other than to suck up to her to get something. To literally fall at her feet and make her feel special. Women don't do it so much for this reason because they don't need to impress men to reproduce.
Proposing, the ring, giving her flowers etc is just the way the male panders to her so she doesn't lose interest and moves on to the next male. In western society, the male's natural attractive quality has been super-imposed upon the female and into objects like rings or gifts.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,150,245 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by *VaNiLlaGoRrilLa*
Right! It’s like they’re saying “You’d better not suggest I stay in the kitchen all day long!!!! But you want ME to propose? Are you mad???â€
Not going against the sisterhood here ladies, just saying. It doesn’t make sense. I don’t think I expect a man to do anything but be a good person to me. Don’t gamble our money away or disrespect me.
All that he should do this, she should do that nonsense is just that.
We live in a funny 'ol society right now. For all the 'progress' (no I'm not an anti-feminist, but I'm realistic about it not being only good) feminism and civil rights have made, girls still play with Barbie dolls, like dressing up, and women tend to choose occupations in child care, nursing etc in more numbers than engineering or aviation. I think this modern western construction of femininity is more entrenched in our thinking and daily life then ever.
The strides that have been made are mainly in the economic sphere; outside the more liberal groups, gender roles are actually still quite rigid. I think many women still have this princess mentality that is further instilled into them by celeb culture, electronic media, magazines like Marie Claire and the way they relate with their peers. Proposing to your fiance, for example, is still seen as weird in certain circles, and until women start doing this up to 40-50% of the time it will remain so. There's no doubt the man proposing is no less chauvinistic than the man having to be 'head of the household', or a woman taking the man's last name. I'm not saying it's bad, of course, but the RULE of a man always proposing is no different from the 'rule' of 'ladie's first.'
a) ask a man out on a proper date? Never did. I'm fairly reserved.
b) propose to their fiance? Does telling him he better get a ring on my finger or I'm leaving his a$s count?
c) be comfortable earning more than their SO? I'd love that! And I don't think he'd complain.
d) be happy to now and then do the 'male' jobs around the house like fixing stuff if they need doing (i.e. replacing a lightbulb without calling for her man) I'm the son my father never had. I grew up in Pergament and Rickles. And I'm convinced my husband married me because I can help him lift & move heavy things.
b) propose to their fiance? Does telling him he better get ring on my finger or I'm leaving his a$s count?
What is up with that anyway?
It seems that you don’t really love the person for who he is if you have this attitude, that you would be wiling to just throw away everything if he doesn’t put a big diamond ring on your finger and buy you a long white princess dress.
No offence TIW, that’s just my observation. I guess it depends what marriage means to you. It could mean a lot more than that to you, I am just saying it doesn't to some women.
Anyway, a lil off topic.
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Originally Posted by Trimac20
I think many women still have this princess mentality that is further instilled into them by celeb culture, electronic media, magazines like Marie Claire and the way they relate with their peers.
I agree. I can’t believe how deluded some of my friends are. They expect a man to be just like they are in the movies.
I love shows like Sex and the City, I love to shop and live the high life as much as possible, but I also know reality.
We live in a funny 'ol society right now. For all the 'progress' (no I'm not an anti-feminist, but I'm realistic about it not being only good) feminism and civil rights have made, girls still play with Barbie dolls, like dressing up, and women tend to choose occupations in child care, nursing etc in more numbers than engineering or aviation. I think this modern western construction of femininity is more entrenched in our thinking and daily life then ever.
The strides that have been made are mainly in the economic sphere; outside the more liberal groups, gender roles are actually still quite rigid. I think many women still have this princess mentality that is further instilled into them by celeb culture, electronic media, magazines like Marie Claire and the way they relate with their peers. Proposing to your fiance, for example, is still seen as weird in certain circles, and until women start doing this up to 40-50% of the time it will remain so. There's no doubt the man proposing is no less chauvinistic than the man having to be 'head of the household', or a woman taking the man's last name. I'm not saying it's bad, of course, but the RULE of a man always proposing is no different from the 'rule' of 'ladie's first.'
Hang on there. The progressive or liberalizing aspect of gender egalitarianism, in our modern society isn't to do away with old roles, but to at leave us choice whether to follow them or not, and let us not be judged on our sex.
To force "counter-traditional" gender roles through society is no improvement on forcing "traditional" ones. But that's not what gender egalitarianism should be about.
For instance, you mention the women engineers. Even if a small number, say only 10% of women (I'll just throw a number) choose the stereotypical "male" path, those 10% should have the freedom to do so. It doesn't matter that the 90% of other women go back to "feminine jobs", because at least the 10% that don't won't be barred or judged in any way and treated no different from if they were men. That's the goal (at least in theory).
Same goes with something stereotypical in the other way, like raising families. In more "traditional" societies, only maternity leave is given, or if paternity leave is allowed, it's much shorter. That selects against dads doing it, even if they wanted to. But if maternity and paternity leave are interchangeable, that at least allows those dads that want to spend time with their new kid to do so to be treated equally as moms, even if it's not a majority.
The goal, which I think is the goal of any "progressive" society, is the freedom from being judged based on what the other members of your sex are doing and be treated as your own person, just because you happened to be by birth, have the same sex as them.
Men have penises and Women have vaginas. We are different for a reason or else we would all be one gender.
THE END!
This is so we can spread the genes around and keep them mixed up. Other than that, there are numerous studies that show that men and women are not really as different as was once perceived.
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Originally Posted by Trimac20
What the PC police decree and what the average Jack or Jill on the street believe are two different things. The media makes it out that most men and women actually want to be equals; the reality is, centuries of Western culture, biology and upbringing are entrenched into our brains to such an extent that even the most progressive among us, deep down, holds these societal expectations as 'home truths', whether they agree with them or not.
Gender roles are entrenched into our society. It has been that way for many years, centuries, really. The traditional roles are that men are providers and women are nurturers. Honestly, do you believe that men do not possess the ability to nurture? Women cannot provide? Biology is more about basic survival instincts, not gender roles. I guaranty you that if you dropped off an infant boy and girl into the jungle and they somehow managed to stay alive, they would both grow up in much the same way; hunting, building shelter, etc. The woman would not stay home and play house while the man went out to earn his keep. These roles are implemented by society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
There's an old-fashioned view that chivalry was entirely innocent and related to general politeness/etiquette in society...
Uh, the history of chivalry is mostly about Christian martyrdom where those involved took vows to uphold certain standards and promises to those in charge; which were always men. Even when the Crusades were over and chivalry become more about knighthood, it was still a vow to serve the King (or sometimes Queen). These dudes were not going around holding doors open for ladies, etc. They were still pretty damn rude and lacked basic manners.
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Originally Posted by Trimac20
There's no LOGICAL reason for a man pulling out a chair or opening a door for a female who is perfectly capable of doing so, other than to suck up to her to get something. To literally fall at her feet and make her feel special. Women don't do it so much for this reason because they don't need to impress men to reproduce.
I agree with the last sentence. Just being female is enough for them to get action.
But, to your opening here: what!?! There is a logical reason for a man pulling out a chair or holding open a door for a lady. It's called common courtesy. It's just a decent thing to do. I do it all the time and i never once expected the women, or men, to fall at my feet.
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