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Like I said before, on a fundamental level I agree with Calipoppy. I differ in that I think woman can and should break the ice (especially with a shy guy) but I think that in most cases, when a women pursues a man, she loses.
Of course, me being me, I like to read and get more information. So I found some articles to support my opinion. I will quote from them.
Even in research about appropriate dating behavior among adults today, “men and women both agree that men should actively pursue female partners and that women should be passive recipients to their advances,” says Jessica Carbino, a Ph.D. candidate in sociology at UCLA who studies online dating and relationships. “For example, women and men overwhelmingly state that men are supposed to plan dates, ask out the woman, and pick her up. Moreover, when women do not adhere to these scripts they are viewed negatively. For example, women who initiate dates are viewed by men as more promiscuous and not interested in forming a serious relationship...”
This catch-22 presents women with a few options, none of which are appealing. You can directly pursue a man, but only if you want to convey that you’re only in it for sex. You can choose not to pursue him, but then you’re relegated to this historic, passive role that doesn’t jibe with your active, considered approach to any other area of life, be it work or real estate or even friendship. Carbino sees this tension in her own research. “According to these women, their professional background is already intimidating to many men and they feel as though asking them out would make them less attractive and even more intimidating,” she says. “The men I interview also state that they prefer to be the individual who initiates the date and at times find women who ask them out to be more aggressive.”
I know how frustrating it is to sit back and let a man take the lead. We want a man to know we’re interested in him. We want to make it easy for him to ask us out again. We want to seem enthusiastic and easygoing. And often times this means we inadvertently chase him in the ways described above.
It’s true that most men need validation as much as we do. But there’s a difference between letting a man know you like him and subtly chasing him. When you chase a man, you don’t give him the chance to show you how he really feels about you. And my experience has shown that the only way to really be sure of where his heart is at is by creating the space he needs to pursue you.
Ladies, I’m going to be absolutely frank with you. I used to chase men, because I thought it was good to go after what I wanted. It never ended well. I know women who chase men. It never ends well. Stop chasing men already. I know you want them. So be smarter about getting them. You’ll never get a man by chasing him. You’ll get a man by making him want to chase you... men and women might have equal rights (and we should) but our biology is still different, thanks to the wonders of human evolution, biology, and hormones. You can find this news upsetting if you want to. I know I did, for many years. You can stomp your feet about it, and steam from your ears. That’s fine. It’s not fair. We all know that. But just because something is upsetting or unfair doesn’t make it untrue.
Like I said before, on a fundamental level I agree with Calipoppy. I differ in that I think woman can and should break the ice (especially with a shy guy) but I think that in most cases, when a women pursues a man, she loses.
Of course, me being me, I like to read and get more information. So I found some articles to support my opinion. I will quote from them.
It's never going to change unless women continue to take the initiative. It's not like asking a man out means you have to have sex with him or something. It just means you asked him out. Take your time, get to know each other. Don't rush into anything.
Wow, so now a man who smiles and says "Hi", "Hello" or "Good Morning" to initiate a conversation with a woman whom he finds attractive is considered "boorish" behavior?
I engage in friendly banter with women all of the time. It’s called basic social interaction. I have female colleagues, and occasionally supervise female graduate students. Sometimes we even go to dinner - as a group. But all of these colleagues, students and associates are married, or have boyfriends. I respect their relationships and don’t mix business with pleasure. I say “Hi†to the cute cashier at the grocery store, and smile. But I also respect her space. She’s there to earn a paycheck, not to be chatted-up by men on the prowl. To exploit her status as captive-audience is boorish and uncouth. If she happens to be interested in me, the onus is on her to suggest, “Hey, we keep running into each other on line 12. You work late hours – normally at this time of night, I only see college kids around here. I wonder what you do?†Then, and only then, would I interpret her friendliness as genuine invitation, as opposed to mere formalism dictated by American business culture. Then, and only then, would I suggest going for a cup of coffee after her shift ends. To pounce prematurely is reserved for cads – or for the “alpha males†that calipoppy seems to venerate so much.
It's never going to change unless women continue to take the initiative. It's not like asking a man out means you have to have sex with him or something. It just means you asked him out. Take your time, get to know each other. Don't rush into anything.
The thing is, I subscribe to the theory that this "men chase women" phenomena is biological in nature... not social or cultural. Cultural tells us how and what are acceptable forms of chase, but the root of the chasing is how we evolved. Throughout the world and history, men have been the hunters and chasers (so to speak). I would think if it was cultural, we'd seem more variety in the world. I don't think we are going to be able to override biology with culture.
And again, I've said chase/pursue. Saying hello or even asking out isn't chasing. It's initiating contact and getting noticed. I think it's a distinction worth noting.
The thing is, I subscribe to the theory that this "men chase women" phenomena is biological in nature... not social or cultural. Cultural tells us how and what are acceptable forms of chase, but the root of the chasing is how we evolved. Throughout the world and history, men have been the hunters and chasers (so to speak). I would think if it was cultural, we'd seem more variety in the world. I don't think we are going to be able to override biology with culture.
And again, I've said chase/pursue. Saying hello or even asking out isn't chasing. It's initiating contact and getting noticed. I think it's a distinction worth noting.
I agree to a degree. I don't think I'd ever, literally chase a man. Asking out for a coffee or dinner is one thing but chasing is another. The old adage plenty of fish is just too true to ignore. I've never actually seen a woman IRL pursue a man to the same degree that men will. The persistent woman seems to be something of an urban legend or that you see on made for tv movies and she turns out to be bunny boiling crazy.
There's a line and it's never been confusing for me, between making the first move and chasing a guy. I haven't found a man to date that had an issue with me being upfront with him. I'm just not the sort to play games. If I was interested, I let them know. If I wasn't sure, I didn't say anything either way. If I wasn't interested at all, I let them know. It's okay for women to make the first move. This much has changed. Even if women offer as little as a smile. A lot of men do like it when women initiate contact. Anything from as small as a smile to outright asking him out. Most will pick up on the more subtle hints, some won't.
thank you! And how is this concept in 2013? Still alive?
Good question. That's pretty much the only response I can muster in response to this entire thread: "Huh? People are still discussing this? Did I hop on the internet time machine to a past century?" The question of whether women can pursue men was settled long ago.
Not a good idea to give into a woman who pursues you. You end up getting seduced eventually and it is very easy just to give in and settle. In my experience my greatest regret is not being the pursuer and getting what I really wanted...besides woman who pursue are usually overly will full and pose a problem later...They might not be as interested in your needs and only in their own.
Not a good idea to give into a woman who pursues you. You end up getting seduced eventually and it is very easy just to give in and settle. In my experience my greatest regret is not being the pursuer and getting what I really wanted...besides woman who pursue are usually overly will full and pose a problem later...They might not be as interested in your needs and only in their own.
Thank you for the listing the interesting article links jillabean -- I found them to be very fascinating to review!
At the same time though, if as a general rule of thumb a woman takes the position that she is not going to pursue a man, what then happens if a man who likes her is very interested in her, but he isn't 100% sure if her behavior toward him is a sign of true romantic interest or if she's just being friendly? Unfortunately, not all men are good at reading body language; in fact some are downright terrible at it (including me personally, in the "terrible" category! ). In the above hypothetical example, say the guy in question thinks that the girl (who is in reality interested in him romantically) is only being friendly, based on her body language alone, and/or her rather vague verbal hints...what should he do here?? What if he concludes he doesn't have a realistic chance with her at all to begin with, and thus failure is inevitable no matter what he says or does?
For the guy, there are two fundamental paths he can take. Choice A: make a move romantically (and the associated risk of getting rejected, embarrassed, humiliated, etc.); or Choice B: play it safe, and assume that she is really only actually being friendly (and thus do not romantically pursue).
I cannot tell you how many countless times IRL when I was younger, I have had a girl come across so nice and incredibly sweet to me that it was pretty hard not to interpret their behavior as at least a small sign of romantic interest. In 99.9% of such cases, I tried to make a tactful and appropriate move romantically, only to get shot down 100% of the time. Why? Because they were only interested in friendship after all, and my attempt at romantic pursuit of them was totally counterproductive, because after I had actually pursued them romantically and the cat was out of the bag, virtually all of said women were not interested in talking to me anymore at all. After these (many) rather unpleasant experiences, it seemed to be much safer for me to interpret girls' positive non-verbal hints as only friendship-based by default, and not romantic in nature. It was not until my current loving angel, that I mentioned here in an earlier post, actually told me (directly straight out and verbally!) that she was romantically-interested in me and wanted more than friendship, that this vicious cycle was broken.
For all the ladies who say that women should never pursue, never chase, and never be direct or more specific about how they feel, etc., what happens when the guy you're actively interested in really does like you back, but because he can't determine if you like or not him and probably thinks he's only going to fail anyway if he approaches you? C'mon now, surely being a little more concrete or specific in the level of detail you show regarding your interest couldn't hurt at all? And he can still chase you, if that's what you really want...but at least be willing to show him he has a real chance, if he tries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillabean
Like I said before, on a fundamental level I agree with Calipoppy. I differ in that I think woman can and should break the ice (especially with a shy guy) but I think that in most cases, when a women pursues a man, she loses.
Of course, me being me, I like to read and get more information. So I found some articles to support my opinion. I will quote from them.
Oh my this is just getting silly why does this cause so much nonsense. If you like some say hey and try to initiate some contact and see where it goes from there. That is all I don't know what entails this "chasing" and "pursuing" that everyone holds gospel but to me its just making things just silly.
All this stuff is being wrapped up in anecdotal "evo psych" and expectations.
Throw in the "alpha" and "beta" crap and now this mole hill is the tower of babel.
Also to the guys if a women is going to see you as "beta" for not acting or prescribing in a certain way that she thinks your suppose take that as an humongous bullet dodged.
If only there will be a time when this topic doesn't ensue heated discussion, drama and shaming.
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). In the above hypothetical example, say the guy in question thinks that the girl (who is in reality interested in him romantically) is only being friendly, based on her body language alone, and/or her rather vague verbal hints...what should he do here?? 
What if he concludes he doesn't have a realistic chance with her at all to begin with, and thus failure is inevitable no matter what he says or does?
And he can still chase you, if that's what you really want...but at least be willing to show him he has a real chance, if he tries?
