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I will answer your questions assuming you really want to know the answers and that they're not rhetorical based on assumptions, most of which are actually wrong, and I'm not making this up - I will be entirely honest here.
1. He was 5'7". He worked out and wasn't "bulky" but tight. Then again, back then most of us were slender and we were pretty physical so most of us had at least some tone as well.
2. Good-looking...well...he was about average-looking? He did have blonde hair. He had sort of soft facial features. He didn't really have the traditional "male" stuff like the strong jaw and so on. But he wasn't ugly, either. At all. He was about average, facially.
3. Popular: NO. Beyond no. He always felt he "didn't fit in" and that was true. He was incredibly introverted.
4. Fun: I thought so. Quietly so. More fun in the way of being humorous, I'd say, than doing fun "things" per se.
5. Money: No. We were both middle class.
6. The best I could get: no, I had dated quite a bit by then, including the "good-looking" guys, every so often.
What made me fall in love with him? He was smart, oh God just so smart. And everybody who knows me knows I go for smart. I think you're of an age to remember this: the movie Real Genius? Remember the woman who was sleeping with every bright guy at the school and wound up with Lazlow, the guy in the closet? My friends all joked that I was that girl - not necessarily the sleeping around part but the weird (apparently) penchant for extremely bright guys.
The other thing was that he loved me SO much. That started to make me realize over time that he was a kind person who could be a great mate, or I thought so at the time (things fell apart later...we were kids). Over time our friendship deepened and I just finally started to have feelings for him.
So that's my story.
Did he have SOME objectively attractive traits? I suppose so; for example, many people think blonde hair is gorgeous (it's not my preference but it seems popular) and he wasn't overweight. He was healthy. Are you saying a person has to fall in love with a person with literally not one single physical trait in order to prove beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Because that just wouldn't make sense. Everybody has SOME "objectivey" good trait in this way. Even if it's nice hands...or height...or not being overweight...or having a certain color hair...or eyes...an appealing voice. SOMEthing.
You were 15. So this almost doesn't count. Also, you said that he was very persistent and your friends encouraged it. He also seemed to be in the same social circle as you.
These are very important things to mention because it could change the dynamic significantly.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
Nah, this is because most people are average (hence that word, average); most people aren't either extraordinarily ugly, or extraordinarily beautiful.
And given most people wind up with someone, well...there are a bajillion more average than extremely, overwhelmingly ugly or extraordinarily beautiful choices. It is simple math.
As far as "...not because they find their partner AMAZINGLY (my caps) good-looking"...so what? People don't necessarily NEED "amazingly" good-looking (per cultural parameters), full stop. This is the one thing that some here simply do not seem to understand. And apparently, if it isn't "amazingly" (like...shockingly? Like way beyond? Or what?) good-looking then there is no way they find the partner good-looking, period? Or something? Can't find the person beautiful? Because that person doesn't look biologically Photoshopped? If not then the person can't be beautiful to the person who loves him/her? Physically beautiful?
You're exaggerating here. Good looking is good looking. Not model-esque. If you think that there are only models, average, and ugly people, you are wrong. Again, you rarely see mismatched couples. In my observations, a really good looking guy will date down in looks if the girl treats him very well. A woman will date down in looks if the guy has another reason to have high social status.
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Nor do this group seem to understand that while they rage against this total injustice (that is in their own minds), the mindset comes from them...from their own inability to love someone for non-shallow reasons.
It is pretty ironic.
Maybe for some people. Not me personally.
There are plenty of reasons why I don't really date and they have nothing to do with looks:
1) I don't see a point in dating unless I have an end goal. My end goal is a family. A good portion of marriages in the US end in divorce with the higher earning person (ie: me) getting screwed. It's a bad ROI.
2) Most women are in a ton of debt (whether it be student loan or credit debt). I don't want to take on that debt and it's a massive turn off that so many "independent women" can't even manage their finances.
3) Many women are single mothers, which is a no go for me.
4) I have to change my personality too much to be acceptable in our society (I hate hiking and I'm not a male feminist).
5) I'm short. So I have to put even more effort in than an average guy to get even an average girl. This results in an even worse ROI.
There are probably more, but I can't think of them right now.
As you can see, none of my list involves anything even to do with the girl's looks. I'd happily take an average, debt-free, child-free woman my age who doesn't want me to change myself for some cultural ideal and who can guarantee that we won't divorce.
You were 15. So this almost doesn't count. Also, you said that he was very persistent and your friends encouraged it. He also seemed to be in the same social circle as you.
These are very important things to mention because it could change the dynamic significantly.
You're exaggerating here. Good looking is good looking. Not model-esque. If you think that there are only models, average, and ugly people, you are wrong. Again, you rarely see mismatched couples. In my observations, a really good looking guy will date down in looks if the girl treats him very well. A woman will date down in looks if the guy has another reason to have high social status.
Maybe for some people. Not me personally.
There are plenty of reasons why I don't really date and they have nothing to do with looks:
1) I don't see a point in dating unless I have an end goal. My end goal is a family. A good portion of marriages in the US end in divorce with the higher earning person (ie: me) getting screwed. It's a bad ROI.
2) Most women are in a ton of debt (whether it be student loan or credit debt). I don't want to take on that debt and it's a massive turn off that so many "independent women" can't even manage their finances.
3) Many women are single mothers, which is a no go for me.
4) I have to change my personality too much to be acceptable in our society (I hate hiking and I'm not a male feminist).
5) I'm short. So I have to put even more effort in than an average guy to get even an average girl. This results in an even worse ROI.
There are probably more, but I can't think of them right now.
As you can see, none of my list involves anything even to do with the girl's looks. I'd happily take an average, debt-free, child-free woman my age who doesn't want me to change myself for some cultural ideal and who can guarantee that we won't divorce.
Unfortunately, this is not possible in the US.
Oh well. I'm sorry to hear all this. Anyway, good luck.
I too am wondering what non-U.S. locale guarantees no divorce.
I also wonder what this has to do with beauty being in the eye of the beholder. People have divorced beautiful people.
And guarantees interest in a short guy, and also -- child-free women. The guys who are falling all over each other to get to the East European women don't seem to be aware that most of those women have a kid. There's a lot of pressure over there for women to have a child. Child-free is not acceptable. And many women there have a kid outside of marriage. But the guys chasing after foreign women suddenly become less concerned with the very qualities that turn them off about US women (or the qualities they erroneously believe "all" US women to have), when those qualities are packaged with a foreign culture.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 03-05-2018 at 09:57 AM..
You were 15. So this almost doesn't count. Also, you said that he was very persistent and your friends encouraged it. He also seemed to be in the same social circle as you.
These are very important things to mention because it could change the dynamic significantly.
You're exaggerating here. Good looking is good looking. Not model-esque. If you think that there are only models, average, and ugly people, you are wrong. Again, you rarely see mismatched couples. In my observations, a really good looking guy will date down in looks if the girl treats him very well. A woman will date down in looks if the guy has another reason to have high social status.
Maybe for some people. Not me personally.
There are plenty of reasons why I don't really date and they have nothing to do with looks:
1) I don't see a point in dating unless I have an end goal. My end goal is a family. A good portion of marriages in the US end in divorce with the higher earning person (ie: me) getting screwed. It's a bad ROI.
2) Most women are in a ton of debt (whether it be student loan or credit debt). I don't want to take on that debt and it's a massive turn off that so many "independent women" can't even manage their finances.
3) Many women are single mothers, which is a no go for me.
4) I have to change my personality too much to be acceptable in our society (I hate hiking and I'm not a male feminist).
5) I'm short. So I have to put even more effort in than an average guy to get even an average girl. This results in an even worse ROI.
There are probably more, but I can't think of them right now.
As you can see, none of my list involves anything even to do with the girl's looks. I'd happily take an average, debt-free, child-free woman my age who doesn't want me to change myself for some cultural ideal and who can guarantee that we won't divorce.
Unfortunately, this is not possible in the US.
It sounds like you've been looking for love in all the wrong places. OR--you're geographically challenged. None of the women among my friends and family are heavily in debt, or in debt at all, and all of them are child-free. Look for women who have their act together. That may mean focusing on women who are aiming for a professional degree, whether that's in the planning stage, or they're in grad school. If you're in the Mid-west or South, that may mean moving elsewhere, where the regional culture doesn't pressure women to get married young, but rather, supports women in making something of themselves, and staying child-free while doing so. It's definitely doable to find women who aren't in debt, and who are child-free. Other men find such women, and make a life with them. You can, too.
P.S. You might be surprised how many women I know who have no interest in hiking, either. Hike-free, child-free, debt-free women! Your dream is out there! Believe, seek, and ye shall find.
And guarantees interest in a short guy, and also -- child-free women. The guys who are falling all over each other to get to the East European women don't seem to be aware that most of those women have a kid. There's a lot of pressure over there for women to have a child. Child-free is not acceptable. And many women there have a kid outside of marriage. But the guys chasing after foreign women suddenly become less concerned with the very qualities that turn them off about US women (or the qualities they erroneously believe "all" US women to have), when those qualities are packaged with a foreign culture.
I think also sometimes the appeal of "non-U.S." women is that they often want so much to get into the U.S. (I'm talking those who specifically go on sites for this, as such marriages can definitely happen naturally...so I'm speaking of the former, not the latter) that they will say what it takes to accomplish that.
They KNOW how some guys view women here. They're not stupid. They have the internet too. And each other.
The guys hang onto the dream even as, like Ruth points out above, things start morphing, or coming to light.
Again...I am not saying this is every international relationship, by far. I know a lot of relationships where the people were from two different countries, and they are extremely happy (OTOH, in ALL of these relationships they met in the same country, where the SO was already a citizen). But when a woman is specifically trying to get into another country, and is on a dating site for that, refusing any men in her own country, well...come on, guys. What do you THINK this "perfect" woman is going to say? That she demands equality and wants you to take her for expensive dinners while she chats on the cell phone you've bought her with all her friends?
I don't really believe that "non-U.S. women" are universally happy with socially awkward, angry/chip on shoulder, backward 1950s guys (who nevertheless want the woman to bring in money), and are eagerly lining up to bring such a guy his slippers every night...meanwhile maintaining her mega-hottie figure...but virgin-like status. Come on now. Women are women. Further, believe it or not, women are PEOPLE. Nobody wants to be treated like a second-class citizen. I don't care how that person was "raised." If she was "raised" that way in her own country and she's happy that way then that's where she should want to stay - in that place, with those values. Yet she's angling like hell for some dude in another country, desperate to get out, now just why is that?
Love how often dudes who really don't seem to have much success in the love/romance/women dept want to explain and dictate terms of reality for this very subject to those of us who have enjoyed vastly more success in it than they have. Like you hate it so much you gave up on it, but you're gonna tell us all how it is. It's like putting together a cooking show for the guy who can't manage to boil water. Please, please, tell us all how you do it!?
Pete's sakes.
So I had a conversation with a dear friend who is lonely and bored, stuck in another state dealing with some family stuff, and to break up the monotony she is going on some dates. Trying to have some more-or-less casual fun. She sent me the profiles of two men she has interacted with. One of them was an obnoxious boundary pusher, younger than her by 13 years, but he was "super hot" according to her, identified as a Dom (yeah, that's part of the picture, but I'll try not to get all into it.) Guy #2 is submissive, 14 years older than her, not as attractive, but smarter, more interesting, and far more respectful. (Well, duh.) I looked over the profiles she sent of these two. The first guy had only photos of his abs in dramatic lighting. He was certainly built. But pictures like that, combined with a profile that was all arrogant attitude and bad spelling, the whole package put me off entirely. Second guy looked far more promising, even though normally I am not into subby dudes. I know which one I'd date. The smart older one, not the buff young jerk with the roaming hands and the washboard abs. I told her he seemed really pretentious, like he thinks he's hot sht, and that would get an immediate pass from me. She said, "Yeah, I haven't seen him again. I'm sticking with the other one and exploring my inner Domme a bit. It's fun."
Granted, I'm sure the first guy has more success with silly young party girls, than the second one does. But my friend, who is widely considered to be one of the most show-stoppingly stunning women in our community (she has the perfect curvaceous--in the right places--body, perfect pearly skin, deep red hair, conversations literally derail when she walks by) is brilliant and mature enough to look further than a man's abs, and she does demand a certain amount of respect from anyone who hopes to share her time, let alone her bed.
Thing is, it's not even a matter of compensating for one variable with others, it's that the one variable...yeah, it's one of the factors, but no more than that. It isn't more important to women, necessarily. And different women have vastly different priorities, and are shaped by their own experiences. While I do think that physical appearance is more important to men, I still think it's subjective, because I have observed various men having different types. I know men who consistently go after really overweight women. I know men who like tall women, short women, all sorts of variety. I've met a few (but not more than a few) people who are truly so ugly that it will be really difficult to find someone willing to give them a chance. We are talking disfigurement of the Quasimodo/Elephant Man variety here. I think that they're probably more rare than the 10/10 supermodel types, and that even the most "objectively" good looking people on the planet, are still UNattractive to some, maybe many, others.
Love how often dudes who really don't seem to have much success in the love/romance/women dept want to explain and dictate terms of reality for this very subject to those of us who have enjoyed vastly more success in it than they have. Like you hate it so much you gave up on it, but you're gonna tell us all how it is. It's like putting together a cooking show for the guy who can't manage to boil water. Please, please, tell us all how you do it!?
^ Yep.
It is pretty much like W.C. Fields writing an authoritative book on The Care and Nurturing of Children.
It is pretty much like W.C. Fields writing an authoritative book on The Care and Nurturing of Children.
Just another day in CD-R I guess.
And what about the gulf between most women's self image and what others see of us?
Personally if I had to guess at the 1-10 scale for myself, for lack of a better way to put it (I think this scale is dumb, but whatever) I'd say I'm somewhere in the 6-7 range. Like a 7 on a good day. But based on how some men I know look at me and treat me, it seems they are seeing something closer to an 8 or maybe even higher, but then to other men I know, it's as though I'm invisible.
The guy who goes gaga for tall, voluptuous blondes, is not gonna start chasing my tiny dark-haired self. But I'm certainly not lacking for attention, so I don't sweat it one bit.
If this "objective" thing were some absolute truth, my perception of my looks would be equivalent to the perception of every other human around me who is interested in women, at the very least. There would be consensus. And yet, there really is not.
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And each other.
