On Monogamy and 'The Discussion' (boyfriend, guy, cheater, personal)

[msgirlnyc]

Originally Posted by Auraliea

There are no guarantees and that seems to be what you're not understanding. You're so stuck on baseless assumptions and you're just asking for confusion. This man did not cheat on you because you were never together. If you can make it clear that you don't want a relationship, why can't you vocalize when you do? That makes no sense.

I'm not clear when I had the chance to do so. I made the (negligee) gesture afterward and likely would have had that conversation when I started staying over. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he "slipped up" when I made the neglige gesture and I start to see the slip up then as anything but. In fact, there may not have even been another woman it might have just been part of the maneuvering me into a commitment I resisted.

At least I'm getting some clarity here thank you.

[timberline742]

Negligee Gesture sounds like a bad goth band name. Who the heck cares about stuff like that? That's not a gesture, its stuff that gets thrown to the floor as fast as possible.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by msgirlnyc

Funny thing neither has explicit agreements on the same...

You seem to be protesting that explicit communication should not be needful, since it is no guarantee that someone won't simply cheat.

No, that takes trust. Trust takes time and knowing someone, to grow. It will never be an absolute failsafe, and you'll never have any guarantee that it won't be violated, but a relationship cannot be healthy without it.

On the other hand, if you have a preconceived idea that men (or people, other than you...whatever) are users, only want you because they want "someone" and can't be trusted to be faithful, so you avoid a relationship and you avoid any promises (which you expect to be broken) then out of confusion, someone does not meet your (completely unspoken) expectations, and then you cry, "Aha! I KNEW it!" and get to see them as another confirmation of a bias you've formed... That is a stubborn recital of a script that has brought you unhappiness in the past, why continue to read it over and over? These thoughts about other people not meeting your moral bar, did not come from nowhere.

If you also ignore your instincts, and let people into your life even when your gut is crying "trouble" by placing artificial limits and boundaries, and then allowing someone to sweep them away eventually when you get tired of policing them... You're still kind of setting yourself up.

Also, did you say he was the first person you dated after a divorce? Because if so...you did need some time, but personally I think that time should either be spent alone, or (as I did) REALLY dating without commitment, as in you dating multiple partners...because you need a time to learn. The first guy out of the gate, who shows you some positive attention that feels good, may very well (likely) be an awful choice. That's why "rebound" is a thing people talk about. You're free, and even if you think you know better, this person makes you feel good, so you go along with it. But you've got to learn and grow a bit, and find that actually, there are a variety of potential partners available to you, and you don't need to settle into exclusivity for the first bozo who offers you a good time. Wait until you find the real deal, and give even THAT time to mature. Someone who respects your boundaries and who lights up your soul. Doesn't sound to me like this fellow did either for ya.

[Pilot1]

Originally Posted by msgirlnyc

I'm not clear when I had the chance to do so. I made the (negligee) gesture afterward and likely would have had that conversation when I started staying over. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he "slipped up" when I made the neglige gesture and I start to see the slip up then as anything but. In fact, there may not have even been another woman it might have just been part of the maneuvering me into a commitment I resisted.

At least I'm getting some clarity here thank you.

You may be right, he could have been throwing the "other woman" out there to make you jealous. If it is made up, that's a red flag right there, and a sign of dishonesty. If it is true, another red flag, a sign of stupidity. You come over to my place with a sexy negligee, the LAST thing I am going to do is bring up other women.

It sounds like you are developing baggage with this guy, that may be getting too heavy to carry.

[msgirlnyc]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

You seem to be protesting that explicit communication should not be needful, since it is no guarantee that someone won't simply cheat.

No, I am simply saying explicit communication is often no more a guarantee than an implicit one. People who are going to cheat (lie, steal, kill) are going to do so.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

No, that takes trust. Trust takes time and knowing someone, to grow. It will never be an absolute failsafe, and you'll never have any guarantee that it won't be violated, but a relationship cannot be healthy without it.

Agreed. And trust takes giving people rope to act as they will. I don't mean the 'aha gotcha' rope you refer to later on, I simply mean that you learn a lot more from someone's behavior than their words.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

On the other hand, if you have a preconceived idea that men (or people, other than you...whatever) are users, only want you because they want "someone" and can't be trusted to be faithful,

It is not even close to my preconceived notion, in fact mine might be just the opposite, precisely the reason these conversations do not occur to me. And FYI my thought process was not 'he just wants someone and will cheat on me" it was simply; he just wants someone and I don't want to be "someone".

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

That is a stubborn recital of a script that has brought you unhappiness in the past, why continue to read it over and over? These thoughts about other people not meeting your moral bar, did not come from nowhere.

Again, this is not a "cycle" I am in, I have in the past always (as far as I know) been involved in trusting monogamous relationships with men I trusted and honored. The "moral bar" in this case came from the behavior that is totally out of bounds to what I know and am used to. As valid as the 'don't assume' and 'conversations are important' advice here is, at the end of the day, FOR ME, a man/person who would invite you to share their home and bedroom and unique intimacies only to do so a week later with someone else hast tripped over a moral bar I hold dear. The mistake is in thinking that everyone has that same moral bar, I GET it.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

Also, did you say he was the first person you dated after a divorce?

Nope, long layover dealing with family illnesses.

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

...Someone who respects your boundaries and who lights up your soul. .

Now that is the best quote of the day. In fact I'm gonna post it again

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

...Someone who respects your boundaries and who lights up your soul. .

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by msgirlnyc

Well that is the best question so far. I'd guess the answer is I was lonely having been mired in family issue for years. Clearly I liked the attention and clearly I liked things about him as well. So I ignored the flags and, as always, those are the ones that trip you up and deservedly so. I'm not claiming I didn't put myself in this very spot by ignoring my own instincts for my own needs. I guess in the end the answer to this whole thread is I am surprised and have no right to be.

This is the crux of it, right here, OP. You were needy, and also I think you mentioned--flattered by the attention, so you got involved in this odd dynamic of protesting that you didn't want to date, while actually going ahead and dating him. If you hadn't done that, the rest wouldn't have followed. And you also sent him mixed messages, including "I don't want to commit to anyone". So you shouldn't be surprised that he went along with that.

And if he's the type of guy who believes that women don't really know what they want, and that "no means yes", well--you're Exhibit A, I'm sorry to say. You convinced him his beliefs were true. You didn't do the rest of womankind any favors, when you did that.

Let this experience serve as food for thought. I think you have some self-reflection to do. He sounds like a real jerk, btw. For all you know, he's a sexual predator (the pushiness points in that direction), and the empty bureau drawers and spare keys are his schtick. Neediness can put women at risk.

[msgirlnyc]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

And if he's the type of guy who believes that women don't really know what they want, and that "no means yes", well--you're Exhibit A, I'm sorry to say. You convinced him his beliefs were true. You didn't do the rest of womankind any favors, when you did that.

Let this experience serve as food for thought. I think you have some self-reflection to do. He sounds like a real jerk, btw. For all you know, he's a sexual predator (the pushiness points in that direction), and the empty bureau drawers and spare keys are his schtick. Neediness can put women at risk.

I think those are both stretches. I did not teach him 'no means yes'. I gave him what I wanted freely. He asked for more. I said no. When he gave me more, I started to give him more. This has nothing to do with 'womankind' or 'predation', there are plenty of my female friends who do this and worse to men every day.

Do I have self-reflection to do? Without a doubt. Does he? Without a doubt. Yet I can tell you what is not the case; I didn't do 'womankind' any harm, only perhaps myself, and perhaps I simply learned a good lesson in my return to the world of dating and love. I can tell you he is not a 'predator' (would he be one if our genders were reversed or just 'a strong independent woman'?). I think he is a guy looking for love, perhaps too hard, and perhaps because he himself is needy which per your point also as he probably knows puts him at risk too. Sexual predation is horrific and I don't think labeling this as that does womankind any good in fact.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by msgirlnyc

I think those are both stretches. I did not teach him 'no means yes'. I gave him what I wanted freely. He asked for more. I said no. When he gave me more, I started to give him more. This has nothing to do with 'womankind' or 'predation', there are plenty of my female friends who do this and worse to men every day.

Do I have self-reflection to do? Without a doubt. Does he? Without a doubt. Yet I can tell you what is not the case; I didn't do 'womankind' any harm, only perhaps myself, and perhaps I simply learned a good lesson in my return to the world of dating and love. I can tell you he is not a 'predator' (would he be one if our genders were reversed or just 'a strong independent woman'?). I think he is a guy looking for love, perhaps too hard, and perhaps because he himself is needy which per your point also as he probably knows puts him at risk too. Sexual predation is horrific and I don't think labeling this as that does womankind any good in fact.

Fair enough, OP. I wasn't saying he was a predator, just that he could have been. There are guys who operate somewhat like that. We weren't there, and we're only getting your synopsis, but I did find that pushiness a little disturbing and annoying, and the part where you were saying no to dating, but going through with it anyway--confusing. Anyway, thanks for clarifying a bit.

[oh-eve]

Originally Posted by msgirlnyc

Fast fwd a bit, we are gettting closer, he gets a new apt and makes a copy of his keys and says I'd like you to feel free to come and go and make yourself at home. We have one day of great sex, especially when he pulls out a sex toy he has discussed in the past and he says he never used it either on himself or with anyone before. I'm not trying to get graphic, only to share that we shared a very intimate time and shared something I thought was special together. Before I left he showed me two drawers in his bedroom that he had emptied out and said he wanted me to start bringing my things over and keeping them there, and he wanted me to start staying over and taking it to the next level.

Because we were growing closer and because I was starting to trust his feelings for me were genuine and about me not just anyone, I started to let down my guard. I even shopped online for a neglige to share with him our next time.

So. I bring it to him, we are engaged again with his... toys... and he says something that makes it clear he has used the very same thing recently in the two weeks since we were together.

I was floored. After finally getting me to be truly inimate with him and sharing something I thought was special, two days later he is having sex with another woman in the apartment he said I should feel free to come and go from, in the bedroom he has cleared room out for me in, in the bed he wants me to stay ove r in that weekend, with the toys he said he said he felt comfortable enough for the first time ever to share with me just a few days prior.

His reply is that I said I didn't want a relationship, and until I said or say I want to be in a committed one with him he can do anything he wants. And I don't disagree "on paper". I get it. I've kept him at arms lenght, at least with words. But as he did not accept that distance and given what we had shared, to me I shouldn't have to say 'let's not see anyone else'. I mean clearly that conversation could be formalized, but if he actually wanted such an initimate exlclusive relationship with me, then after having that experience wouldn't the last thing he'd want to do is share that place, that room, that bed, those toys, his body, and his intimacy with someone else?

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned girl, I just think that fidelity is more about not breaking your word and that without an explicity promise everything is fair game; I think fidelity is about what you want to GIVE not just GET.

I'm sure I'll get a lof of 'you got what you deserved' by not opening up sooner and perhaps I did but still would love to hear other girls (and guys) take on this.

am I the only one who has a problem with him using these toys on multiple women back and forth? I get sick in my stomach just thinking of that and how well he cleans it.
I would NEVER use a toy with a new partner when I would know it isn't new or shared with other women. GROSS.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by oh-eve

am I the only one who has a problem with him using these toys on multiple women back and forth? I get sick in my stomach just thinking of that and how well he cleans it.
I would NEVER use a toy with a new partner when I would know it isn't new or shared with other women. GROSS.

It's gross if he isn't following proper sterilization procedures and/or using condoms on them sure, but I would think he would be. No reason to believe he isn't. Hopefully it's not one of the porous material ones, but one of the acrylic easily sanitized ones.