Had a somewhat interesting lunch today (men, older, children, sex)
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I just mentioned in another thread here that the idea that partners in a long term relationship MUST be "everything" to one another (or at least a far higher concentration of every sort of investment) is relatively new and maybe not entirely healthy. I do see women doing more to maintain social networks, usually, than men, while in relationships.
However, I have seen guys overshare to their guy buddies and there's one factor that seems to trigger it. Alcohol. You get some dudes drinking together, and one of them wants to talk about problems with his wife, another how women always hurt him in the same ways, another gets morose over the wife he had who died over a decade ago. It brings out their emotional sides sometimes. Of course this does depend on the guy, and the setting. That was less likely to happen when we were all out shooting pool, compared to when the men were sitting around in the garage.
And yes, I'm a woman, and still feel I can speak on this only because these guys were my ex's friends and they'd be out talking for hours, and I'd pop out briefly for a cigarette and then go back inside, and they'd continue talking like I wasn't even there. And I know very well that my ex has leaned heavily on some of his friends during and after our divorce. Which would be great, in my opinion, if that didn't also involve him making up lies about me and bad-mouthing me...I try not to care, but I wish he wouldn't. Oh, well.
I also hear that soldiers in the Army talk to each other about relationships. My ex when he was a Sergeant, used to have lower ranking guys come to him for advice since to all outward appearances, he was in a healthy marriage. The military rumor mill wasn't just the wives gossiping.
I think the reason guys don't discuss personal relationship/sex stuff is pride.
A woman has no shame in saying she is trying to get pregnant for a year. A guy would probably not tell his buddy because he feels like his "stuff" doesn't work.
A woman may tell her gfs that her guy wants some weird thing in bed and she is just not flexible enough or prude or whatever. A guy would most likely not bring up to his buddies that he is too prude to do anything sexual.
A woman may tell her gfs that she wants more/less sx than her partner. A guy would probably not bring up that his gf wants more sex than him because he is THE MAN.
Your second example reminds me of a Soprano's episode. That woman was beaten. I tend to think many times domestic violence starts with women "sharing." I don't think the reason is pride. It's just that men don't "share", don't want to be around men that "share", and wouldn't be too happy if the GF was "sharing." Men just don't think most things are anyone else's business. The only exception I can think of is when they find out their wife is dying.
Men don't usually care about anyone else's sex life.
Your second example reminds me of a Soprano's episode. That woman was beaten. I tend to think many times domestic violence starts with women "sharing." I don't think the reason is pride. It's just that men don't "share", don't want to be around men that "share", and wouldn't be too happy if the GF was "sharing." Men just don't think most things are anyone else's business. The only exception I can think of is when they find out their wife is dying.
Men don't usually care about anyone else's sex life.
My boyfriend talks about, years ago, meeting an older man that he wished he'd appreciated and listened to more at the time. He says that man was a font of wisdom. And one of the things the guy told him? "Women talk. About. EVERYTHING."
I kinda agree, since I do tend to be an oversharer, but I tell people (boyfriend included) that I am ABLE to keep a secret, but I need them to let me know that they expect it or need me to. It simply is not my default mode. Anyone who chooses to have a close and ongoing interaction with me, needs to know that. If they say, "Please don't tell anyone I said this" then I won't. Otherwise...yeah, I very well may decide to chat with my Mom about it, or use it as an example to illustrate some conversational point I'm trying to make in a forum or something.
I am sometimes surprised how much time men can spend together without talking deep.
I have one of many examples: Ex bfs best buddy comes over for dinner. Ex is not home yet, so I hang with his bff for an hour.
A few days later I say to ex "you never told me that John did ... /in his past worked at .../dated a ...for 5 years/ had cancer/ is an orphan .../used to be an alcoholic ..." Stuff you should know if you are friends for 10 years. And ex said "really?? Are you serious? no, I had no idea. I know what his first car was though and his favorite football team"
I met a lot of men in the past years who don't have friends. I wondered why because they are great people. Turns out, most of the times they had a long term partner/wife and concentrated on the relationship, time with her, family. Then things fell apart and they had no one left.
I know with my parents, it's not that my dad has chosen his marriage and family over friendships. It's that he's outsourced all social obligations to my mom. She makes all the plans, the arrangements, and keeps all the ties current, and he sits back and lets her do that work. If something happened to her, he wouldn't suddenly be picking up the phone and making dinner plans.
I hope you're being sarcastic. If not, understand that men interact differently with each other for their own reasons. There are variables to these situations that we don't know about. One of those variables is the two people in question; they're individuals with their own relationship, not gender monoliths responsible for a predetermined output.
I know with my parents, it's not that my dad has chosen his marriage and family over friendships. It's that he's outsourced all social obligations to my mom. She makes all the plans, the arrangements, and keeps all the ties current, and he sits back and lets her do that work. If something happened to her, he wouldn't suddenly be picking up the phone and making dinner plans.
Some of this might also depend on whether people are more extroverted or introverted.
My boyfriend's parents were Dad-introvert, and Mom-extrovert. And now he and I are him-introvert, and me-extrovert. So I've learned that for me (and presumably for his Mom) doing all of that social stuff is FUN. But for him (and likely also his Dad) it is WORK.
I tell him bits of stories, things I know about this person and that person, and he has trouble keeping up with the basic cast of characters in the story, and he doesn't want to know all of the things I do about people necessarily, and he sometimes says "this is why I'm glad I'm an introvert, I don't have to remember or deal with all that." But to me...it's kind of...I dunno, entertainment? Being in on other people's little dramas without actually having to be INVOLVED in them? And I love social interaction. Giving someone advice that they find really helpful and worthwhile, feels good to me. And I feel like every human connection I make, brings new ideas and color to my life.
I get recharged by social interaction, my boyfriend finds it exhausting. So obviously, he is happy to let me maintain our social life. And he doesn't mind going along and being involved, he just won't be quite as high energy and gregarious as I am. And he'll want to recharge alone sometimes, somewhat more than me, which I completely understand.
Regarding the "toxic masculinity" thing... No, of course, that shouldn't be a label slapped on perfectly happy and healthy men in male friendships. The thing of that, is when men feel like they cannot talk about things, when they NEED TO, because they don't feel ok making themselves vulnerable to anyone, especially other men. So if they don't have a woman to unload on, then they have no support. It's the kind of situation where we see men committing suicide, and a factor in that is not having a good support network and feeling isolated. Women seem (at least sometimes) more prone to building connections where we are supportive of one another.
"Toxic masculinity" does not mean, "Men being bad." It means, "social conditioning or expectations that are harmful to men." It's not an attack on men, it's an attempt to give men permission to have feelings (or rather, encourage them to give THEMSELVES permission), and to express them if they need to, and have supportive relationships. So there is no need to get defensive about it. If a man only feels he is "allowed" to express mainly one emotion, anger, and he turns that rage on others or himself...that is toxic masculinity at work.
Some of this might also depend on whether people are more extroverted or introverted.
My boyfriend's parents were Dad-introvert, and Mom-extrovert. And now he and I are him-introvert, and me-extrovert. So I've learned that for me (and presumably for his Mom) doing all of that social stuff is FUN. But for him (and likely also his Dad) it is WORK.
I think that's probably the case for my parents as well, but my dad was in sales for 35 years, so it's not like he has no experience in calling people up and talking to them. My mom was telling me recently that Dad's oldest friend called him up and that they had a really nice talk and Dad was glad to hear from him, but that he will never pick up the phone and call the guy to repeat the process. As an introvert myself, I thought, "maybe we should get Dad an email address and he can write Jim a note without having to do the phone thing." Dad vetoed that idea, because he said he's old and not learning any new skills.
I think that's probably the case for my parents as well, but my dad was in sales for 35 years, so it's not like he has no experience in calling people up and talking to them. My mom was telling me recently that Dad's oldest friend called him up and that they had a really nice talk and Dad was glad to hear from him, but that he will never pick up the phone and call the guy to repeat the process. As an introvert myself, I thought, "maybe we should get Dad an email address and he can write Jim a note without having to do the phone thing." Dad vetoed that idea, because he said he's old and not learning any new skills.
LOL...my boyfriend is my parents' age (he's 59) and he actually leaves his cell phone at home most of the time. Whereas I feel naked and adrift without mine on my person at all times, even if there are times I set it to one side and ignore it. I'm like, "what if you got into an accident or something???" He just doesn't see it that way. To him, it's just the new tech version of a land-line, and he doesn't want it to be anything else. He has an old Windows phone and it doesn't even have a data plan.
But being in sales, doesn't necessarily mean your Dad is an extrovert. I know introverts who do just fine dealing with people when they put on that "hat" and do their jobs...it's more like, when he got home, did he want to go sit and watch TV or read, or did he want to go out and hang out with friends? What did he do to recharge? What felt more like "work"?
I think the reason guys don't discuss personal relationship/sex stuff is pride.
A woman has no shame in saying she is trying to get pregnant for a year. A guy would probably not tell his buddy because he feels like his "stuff" doesn't work.
A woman may tell her gfs that her guy wants some weird thing in bed and she is just not flexible enough or prude or whatever. A guy would most likely not bring up to his buddies that he is too prude to do anything sexual.
A woman may tell her gfs that she wants more/less sx than her partner. A guy would probably not bring up that his gf wants more sex than him because he is THE MAN.
True, but part of it is that many guys just don't see the POINT in talking about stuff. They figure it out for themselves, are relatively confident in their decision and then they DO IT. I don't know if it's because women are open to more viewpoints or aren't confident themselves but they will often mull stuff over both in their heads and with friends long before they take real action. That can be good and bad, depending on if it is something important they can influence or it's it is trivial or they have no impact.
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